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Too late to leave?

PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 11:31 pm
by Raj_Flower
Here is the madness I am in. Truly a lot of angst and soul searching.

(Thanks for in advance and great web site)

Never have believed in Islam since teens and am an atheist.

But have pretended to be a Moslem. And am married to one.

I thought fair enough i pretend and get family like parents and wife plus 2 kids happy.

Plus decent inheritance and work in family business.

Then I read this article about 6 months ago and it's changed me.

http://m.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/20 ... -the-dying

I want to be me. I want to come out. I want my freedoms to mix with English people more freely.

So I have set about making sure as much as possible of business is in my name.

I am a great dad. And good husband.

When I tell wife (imported from Pakistan) that's when the sh*t will hit fan.

I'm going to be ostracised. I wish I had never got married.

My question is should I feel guilty?

Re: Too late to leave?

PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 11:57 pm
by manfred
Oh dear, this is really hard.

I would say it hugely important to be true to your own convictions.

Some of our convictions we kind of "inherit" from our family and the place we are born. It is for this reason that we need to honestly and openly check them.

You have done so, and reached the conclusion that Islam is not for you.

And now you are stuck with the expectations of Islam all around you.

The first thing you need to know is that you are not alone. Many, many Muslims are so in name only. They go through the motions, for exactly the reasons you mention. To each other they would rarely admit this, but to outsiders, well, that's different.

And the reasons are not so easily brushed aside. You don't want to hurt anyone. Not your wife, not your children, not your family all of whom you love dearly. Your religion is part of your life and your existence, and not by your choice, and that is not a good situation to be in.

So perhaps we need to start here:

Imagine you let the cat out of the bag. What would be the WORST thing that could happen? Could you describe it to me? I am not asking out of some morbid curiosity, but I want to take you for an imaginary walk. I warn you, it will not be a pleasant one, but hopefully at the end you can work out what is best.

Nobody has the right to simply tell you. Only you can make that choice. I will not tell you what you should do, but I will try, with your help, to let you see this issue from a number of different viewpoints, and give you courage.

Re: Too late to leave?

PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 12:45 am
by Raj_Flower
Thanks for taking time out to reply.

Worst things (just quick firing thoghts here). Kids lose dad- law was changed recently so she cant take them out of country. Don't do well in schooling. Moslem community gives me dirty looks and mouthfuls all the time- i live close. Somebody from the community knocks on door and gives me a beating. Mum and dad don't want to talk to me. Sister is going to be fine (she knows and I think plays along too). Wife wants to leave me.

Of course cats stays in bag until business is in my name.

Option one. Keep quiet until kids go university (8 years away). It would stop me being me and enjoying life. I seem to have neither Moslem friends not kafir friends. Both are problematic. How do u socialise. And 8 years on top already 40 years is a big chunk of your life gone.

Option two. Risk it now. Speak to wife and try to explain.

She is housewife ie cooking, watches indian dramas, nothing western whatsoever. Like this perhaps:

"You know how people have physical disabilities? You know the brain is an organ and if its faulty then people get mental problems. Well I have this mental problem and its that I'm not a Moslem and can never be one. You know I love the kids and u r great. Do u still love me?"

Likely the answer will be no. Her family will tell her to leave me. Maybe my parent too.

(I'm on phone btw so I'm using shorthand u etc)

There's a lot I could tell u. I will over time share.

We, if normal, all want to be seen as just and moral people.

prove myself for some more years with children and work as the sole boss.

But the lying and pretending all the time. I don't go mosque unless I have to.

(Ill edit this once I get on computer at some point)

Thanks.

Re: Too late to leave?

PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 4:27 am
by enceladus
Hi Raj_Flower - welcome!

Manfred has given some very good advice. I don't have a lot to add to what he's said.

I assume you're in a Western country. If so, I would tend to advise telling your wife about your having left Islam. It'd be short-term pain for long-term gain and peace-of-mind.

Before telling her (if that's what you do), it would be useful to see if you can find another place to live for a while. A friend or relative's place. Somewhere that you can go while things "blow over", as it were.

You have a sister who knows. She could be very useful. If you eventually decide to tell your wife about having left Islam, maybe get your sister around (good for support) and tell your children first, before telling your wife.

If possible, tell your children while your wife is out of the house. ( You could take them for a walk and tell them then - that's another option..... ).
Telling the children first, they will know 100% "where you're coming from" and they will always know that, even if your wife were to leave and take them with her.

You could take the "I could no longer believe a lie (Islam) and live a lie, but I am STILL a good person" approach. She'll probably be pretty upset, so let her vent her emotions.
See if you can turn it into a "positive" - "I wanted to do this for you" - that kind of thing.

At some time after that, when she is calm, you could even show her the links in my sig
(where I debunk Islam) and the links below (where I talk about Islam having lied to its followers ) -
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=14546

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=14637

If she chooses to leave, then I guess that's her choice (and it may be a good idea just to "go with the flow" and let her do so ). You could tell her that whatever she decides, you will still love her and the children. If she does decide to leave, then (looking on the positive side) you will still have a free mind, and a freer, much less complicated life. That is worth an awful lot - much more (I suggest) than being in a marriage where one has to "live a lie".

Hope this may help. Bye for now -
- enceladus

Re: Too late to leave?

PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 10:01 am
by Intelligent lad
Raj_Flower wrote:Here is the madness I am in. Truly a lot of angst and soul searching.

(Thanks for in advance and great web site)

Never have believed in Islam since teens and am an atheist.

But have pretended to be a Moslem. And am married to one.

I thought fair enough i pretend and get family like parents and wife plus 2 kids happy.

Plus decent inheritance and work in family business.

Then I read this article about 6 months ago and it's changed me.

http://m.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/20 ... -the-dying

I want to be me. I want to come out. I want my freedoms to mix with English people more freely.

So I have set about making sure as much as possible of business is in my name.

I am a great dad. And good husband.

When I tell wife (imported from Pakistan) that's when the sh*t will hit fan.

I'm going to be ostracised. I wish I had never got married.

My question is should I feel guilty?

Write to ali Sina on what to do. I personal conviction is that you can make your wife leave Islam. Show her that Islam allows him to beat her,and all other bad things about women in Islam. Offer her other religions. ( I think you must convert to another religion to make a complete break from Islam) . Christianity is a good option. My personal choice is Agniveer http://agniveer.com/god-vedas-hinduism/

You can convert a Dharmic religion like buddhism or siki. Please make sure you immunize your children from Muhammad. it's not difficult ,as a father they will believe you.

Ask her read these links
http://agniveer.com/series/vedic-woman/

Re: Too late to leave?

PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 2:00 pm
by manfred
Now reading your "worst case scenario", it sounds gloomy indeed. Perhaps you are a little over-cautious, so let's have a look...

1)
You say an number of things about your parents which I would find a little rough perhaps. Most parents love their children, and they will stand by them no matter what happens. They may not be happy, but at the end of the day you are their son. If you do not continue their business, then who will?

I would make sure that your parents really know that you care about them, and that they matter to you very, very much. And as a start, perhaps, to test the water, tell them about an imaginary Pakistani guy, a friend perhaps you met somewhere, or someone you got talking to at parents evening in school while waiting, who does not follow Islam anymore. Watch their reaction. This does not mean that they will react to you the same way. In fact it is very unlikely they would. Most likely there will be some anger and frustration first, and "what will the neighbours think". However, in time they are very likely to come to terms with the fact that you are you and they cannot force you to be something you are not. I am fairly certain that the parental care instinct will in the end win and they will find a way to accept you.

2)

About your children. There is absolutely no reason at all that they would do better of worse at school because of your decision. They will understand that education brings with it an promise of career choices, of better wages, and of a better life generally. Most Asian kids do, much better than British ones. It is a remote possibility though, that one or other of them, as a sign of teenage rebellion, get's more involved in Islam than any of your family. Then it is up to you to show your tolerance and understanding. In most cases such enthusiasm is short lived.

I once had a young Muslim lad, 17 year old, come to me asking for baptism. I did not say yes but insisted on a course studying Christianity for at least a year. I arranged this with an old monk. He lasted for 6 weeks on the course. It turned out he only asked because he was angry with his mom and wanted to upset her. Now he is nominally still a Muslim, but he does not practice, as far as I know. However, he gets on better with his mom now.


3)

Now, your wife. That may be the hardest thing.

There is no denying, she will be shocked and upset. How she will deal with it depends on how much she really, truly care for you. It would be a very awkward thing for her to return to Pakistan, leaving you. What would she return to? Would she really leave her own children? What would people in Pakistan think? Now doubt some would believe she left because you kicked her out, mostly because she found herself a boyfriend on the side. She would be aware of that, so I am not sure she would simply leave you and her children to face an uncertain reception in Pakistan.

Again, maybe it is time to also test things out a bit. Make sure she understands that you care about her. Tell her how much you love her, every day. A little present here and there would be good. Then, make a smallish stand on something. Nothing major, but something she would notice. Maybe be less strict with the fast in Ramadan, or miss prayers now and then. Watch what she says. Make sure she knows she is truly welcome and genuinely loved. If that is too much all at once, buy yourself a gold ring or chain and wear it. Watch what she says.

If she also truly loves you, then she will find it in her heart to accept you just as you are. It may takes some time, but she will consider all that matters.


All this is merely to assess realistically what the likely outcome would be. There is much to be done, and it won't be easy. It will also take time.

All the very best

Re: Too late to leave?

PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 9:14 pm
by Raj_Flower
I havent gone away. I appreciate the replies.

Just thinking about the things you have said.

Re: Too late to leave?

PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 10:34 pm
by manfred
Take all the time in the world. Feel free to tell me I am talking rubbish, if I am.

Re: Too late to leave?

PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 3:57 am
by enceladus
Good advice, manfred.

Yep - I would play up the "I'm still a good person" aspect. Maybe tell your wife of the vast number of really good people who are not Muslims. The doctors, nurses and teachers.
The rescue-workers <--- there's a good example for you - non-Muslims who rescue Muslims (as in the tsunami in Dec 2004).

As a non-Muslim, you are now a member of their "group". The group of good non-Muslim people.

- enceladus

Re: Too late to leave?

PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 11:00 pm
by Raj_Flower
Hi, It's difficult as u have said.

I would lose my parents for sure. I can't turn mother despite chocolates today on Mother's Day. She has to live with father after all. Has taken sides like that before. It's not like she is a professional like a doctor. She is uneducated and dependent on father.

As for my wife. She has three other sisters. Strangely one is married off and I've never seen her. Other is hijab covered and her husband used to avidly follow tableeki people. The third is life experienced and a divorced adulteress.

Very unlikely to understand hitchens Dawkins never mind krauss or dennet. It's going to sound illogical to her. That's why I said I tell her I've gone mad. To a lot of Muslims having seen Islam they can't understand why someone would not become a Moslem. Crazy.

So like they may put down a rabid dog donkey or person they would think putting me down as a solution to my aflicted misery. Wise mullahs will think it exactly like a disease that can spread to the flock so its best to put me down or ostracise me.

There's unlikely a physical threat to me here. Doors closed to ever return to the land of pure. Good.

So I lied. I am a liar. I've lied everyday. Every salaam every prayer has been BS. I do the talk really well- "that was the time Allah had envisaged him to die." Etc

A dirty filthy liar. Who drinks and eats pork. Wife's going to be scrubbing herself in the bath. Everyone's going to be thinking my porky hands have been in their house. Brushed against their children and stripped their wives with my dirty eyes.

I was a coward before. I wanted money that's why I came back. I was sick and tired living in a bed sit with wood chip on the wall.

But I can't bear it anymore.

I went to Finland and Portugal last year on little trips under the guise of work. I saw what I can offer the world and it to me. Being open to say and do things like normal people. Moslems filter the world through a sieve and take out its colour.

(Next time kids and money.)

Re: Too late to leave?

PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 6:43 am
by enceladus
I feel very sorry for the situation you're in, mate.

I'm not religious myself, but if I were Christian, I would give thanks on a ten-foot stack of Bibles that I wasn't born in an Islamic country.

You say that there's unlikely to be any "physical threat" to you. That's good - really good! That is something that you can keep in mind and "build on".

I've been through a heap of bad times myself, ay. Depression. I know exactly what it's like to be waaaaay down in the pits, as it were. Not nice at all. So, yeah - with me, you're not talking to someone who has never had a bad thing happen to them. Far from it.
( Hope that helps...... )

The GOOD thing is that the bad times I went though **strengthened me**.
It may not seem like it now, but I'm sure that eventually this rough patch will make you stronger too. Like hot steel plunged into cold water - massively strengthening it.

Bottom line - if that is indeed the case (no physical threat), then all you will face is some "ranting and raving", and that will pass. "Water off a duck's back", ay..... :)

You know what my response would be (to ranting)?
"Rant all you want - I don't give a TOSS......"
( Insert your expletive of choice in place of "toss", and repeat the phrase as often as needed.... ;) )
Short, sweet and to the point.

You have PROVED that you are stronger than these mere Muslims!
You have BROKEN FREE of the mental chains that the imams shackled you down with.
Ranting? Pfffft.... that is *nothing* in the big picture of things, ay....

Just treat the ranting as a sickness, for that is all it is. A symptom of a disease.
Muslims are indeed sick. Mentally-ill with the malady of Islam.

I say "tell your wife and kids", and then go with the flow.
Pick through the suggestions we've given, write down the ones you like, and keep them in mind.
What happens, happens. That's the attitude to life that I take, and I recommend it to anyone else!
If she wants to take off, let her. A simpler life for you.
- enceladus

Re: Too late to leave?

PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 11:10 am
by Ali Sina
Here is my two cents.

I would not tell anyone anything yet. Your parents don’t need to know at all. Not at least until you have your wife won to your side.

As for her, I suggest don’t tell her you left Islam or that you have any doubts about it. Instead say you think it is time that you deepen your knowledge of Islam and since this could be an opportunity to spend some quality time with her, you’d like to set aside a couple of hours every week to study Islam together.

This could be a bit difficult since most Muslims just believe intensely and fanatically but have no interest to deepen their knowledge of Islam. Tell her about the rewards and maybe even give her some rewards in this world, such as gifts, etc., to express your appreciation that she is spending time with you studying your religion.

Then pick up the Quran or even better, the Sira of Ibn Ishaq or Tarikh Tabari. You can buy these books or you can download them from the Internet for free. You can download Tarikh Tabari in Urdu. I assume she does understand Urdu.

Reading these books alone is enough to open the eyes of anyone, unless one is blind, as Muslims are. But in your case you will be able to find plenty of outrageous things to point out. But never say, look this is bad. Say instead, you don’t understand why Muhammad would do such thing or why Allah ordered this or said that which on the surface seem cruel, unjust or not scientific. Plant small doubts and move on. Pretend to be a devout Muslim all along and never let her realize you are tricking her to read all those evil things in order to lose her faith. She must believe you are just reading these books to increase your knowledge and for the rewards.

I am sure if Muslims read their books and they have a small voice whispering to them some doubts, eventually they will come to see the light.
Here you have to be very tactful, making sure she never realizes what you are doing and also keep her interest alive.

The Quran is a very boring and tedious book. It is also so badly written that one can read it without understand what the heck it says. If you read it in English you can be easily deceived and not see its evilness. I noticed that all the English translations are deceptive, whereas the Persian translation is more accurate. The reason I believe is that the translators of the book into English wanted to hide the evilness of the Quran and hence have twisted the words in such way that their plain meaning are not clear. The Persian translator was writing for Muslims and he did not care fooling anyone. I believe the same must be true for Urdu translation.

However, even if you read the book in Arabic, it is very difficult to know what it says. Actually it is almost impossible to understand the Quran without knowing the Sira. When you read the Sira of Ibn Ishaq or the Tabari, they discuss many verses of the Quran as well saying when they were “revealed” and in which occasion. It is also much easier to read them because they were written by people who knew how to write. Muhammad was an illiterate man and his writings are very confused and disorganized. That is what makes reading the Quran a chore.

I hope this will help. Most Muslims will leave Islam once they know it. Sadly, they take their lessons from other Muslims and imams who brainwash them. They don’t encourage doubt. Instead they have an answer to everything and justify everything. In your case you can sow the seeds of doubt in her.
For example, you come to the story of Satanic Verses that is in the Sira. Once you read it you can scratch you head and say, hmm! I don’t understand how Muhammad did not realize it was Satan who was telling him that the intercession of Lat, Uzza and Manat is beneficial. He was already preaching Isalm for several years. How could he not see this is a bit odd? Discuss that a bit. Let her try to figure this out on herself. Then ask why Gabriel and Allah did not correct him immediately and let it go on for months, until the immigrants from Abyssinia returned? The story says, God consoled Muhammad telling you don’t worry because Satan has deceived all other prophets too. But we don’t have such record at all. None of the prophets of the Bible were deceived. Once you find something, discuss it and sow the seeds of doubt. Then move on. You can’t get result immediately. You need to let the doubts built up, like straws on the back of the camel. Eventually the camel will give in.

You come across a story that says Muhammad invited 40 men of his clan for a meal and Ali cooked for all of them but only enough for one man. Then Muhammad took a bite of that leg of lamb and throw it back in the tray. The food then multiplied itself and all his cousins and uncles ate and became satisfied, but when Muhammad claimed that he was a prophet sent by god, they laughed at him and left. When a Muslim reads this he accepts this silly story uncritically. They are so gullible that they actually think this was a miracle that had happened. But when you read it, pause and say, it is difficult to believe that Muhammad would perform such a miracle in front of all his relatives and none would believe in him and instead mock him. It just does not add up? How can these people see this miracle and not believe. Maybe the story about the miracle is false. Hmm! Looks like Muslims had a lot of love for the Prophet and made up a lot of false miracles attributing them to him. Then you can find verses in the Quran where Muhammad says he can't perform miracles and although all other prophets before him had been given miracles, the only miracles he was given is the Quran. Well this settles all the claims about the miracles. They are then all false. If anyone attributes miracles to Muhammad he is denying the authenticity of the Quran.

You can point out that at this time Ali is a kid, barely 12 years old. Why would the prophet ask a kid to cook for 40 guests when he had a wife and Umm Ayman, his childhood nurse was still his slave? Point out to everything that does not add up. Remember that every little doubt is an added strawtha.

The "beauty" of Sira and specially Tabari is that they are filled with gory tales of Muhammad's butcheries and horrendous crimes. The first time I read Tabari I was sick to my stomach and had to stop and go out for a walk often or I would have gone crazy. Tabari mentions all the evil crimes of Muhammad and Muslims in detail and this learned man was so dumb that could not see Muhammad was an evil man. Tabari has more details than Ibn Ishaq because the Sira of Ibn Ishaq was sanitized by Ibn Hisham. He admitted to deleting the parts that would offend Muslims. Pause and let your wife absorb every gory detail. Don't dwell on it too much. Keep reading as soon you'll find another despicable crime of the Prophet. Each one of these stories is a jab at her faith. The more jabs the weaker it will become and eventually one of them will be the final blow. Describe the scenes and try to envision for her what the victims of Muhammad must have gone through when his men raided their homes, butchered unarmed men and raped the women or took them as slaves.

I am actually writing a book expounding the history of Muhammad, quoting the Sira, Tabari and Tabaqat and discussing them passage by passage. Unfortunately the book is not ready, or I would have suggested you read it first. However, read my book Understanding Muhammad as it makes you understand everything about this man.

The sixth edition of my book is available from Amazon, both in hard copy and as ebook. I am also offering the 4th edition for free. But if you want to invest so many hours reading the book, get the sixth edition. It is a lot better than the 4th edition. I am somewhat perfectionist and I worked on this book hard to make it a great book.

Re: Too late to leave?

PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:48 pm
by Ali Sina
Some posters here have suggested that you break the news to everyone and let the chips fall where they fall. I don't think you should do such thing. A woman who wants to destroy a man's life can do a lot of harm. Women are strange creatures. If they want to hurt you they go the extra mile. Men are stronger and they can be abusive and violent but they fight face to face. Women can be cunning and very devilish. I prefer ten enemies who stand in front of me than one who stabs me from the back.

Re: Too late to leave?

PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 1:03 am
by Ali Sina
You can download the entire Tabari in Urdu from here
http://muslim-library.blogspot.ca/2011/ ... abari.html

You only need to read the volumes that talk about Muhammad. In Persian it is the third and fourth volumes.

Re: Too late to leave?

PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 2:09 am
by Qutuzistan
Why would you want to abandon Islam and betray your own ethnicity? Those whites don't want you around in Britain. You don't have to follow every letter of the Qur'an, but don't sell out your culture and people, to live in a society where you're unwelcome. Just get a job somewhere else and move away. Even if you become atheist, it's not good to betray your culture and family. You live a society where you're perpetually seen as alien, regardless of what you do. Abandoning your own community is not the smartest thing to do.

Re: Too late to leave?

PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 2:15 am
by Ali Sina
Qutuzistan wrote:Why would you want to abandon Islam and betray your own ethnicity? These whites don't want you around in Britain. You don't have to follow every letter of the Qur'an, but don't sell out your culture and people, to live in a society where you're unwelcome.


Islam is not about race. It is a religion and a false one. We left Islam because we realized it is false. We did not leave our race, culture of nationality.

It is amazing that Muslims are so confused about the most elemental things. Aren't you promoting Islam among the whites? Are these people coloring themselves to become Muslims?

Re: Too late to leave?

PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 2:23 am
by Qutuzistan
Ali Sina wrote:
Qutuzistan wrote:Why would you want to abandon Islam and betray your own ethnicity? These whites don't want you around in Britain. You don't have to follow every letter of the Qur'an, but don't sell out your culture and people, to live in a society where you're unwelcome.


Islam is not about race. It is a religion and a false one. We left Islam because we realized it is false. We did not leave our race, culture of nationality.

It is amazing that Muslims are so confused about the most elemental things. Aren't you promoting Islam among the whites? Are these people coloring themselves to become Muslims?


Islam has essentially become our race. It has become the ideological framework(the belief-system) which differentiates us from the racial other. The west that has been in conflict with the west-Asian (eastern) world since the Persians crossed the Bosporus. When people think of Islam today, they think of west-Asian symbols. Beard, camels, head-dresses, swarthy/dark skinned folk who live in semi-arid regions. It has essentially become interwoven with our culture and identity. Muslims are essentially treated like a race, they're a racialized group. The white westerner, who adopted Christianity however and has been its patron since the middle-ages, has always been in perpetual conflict, ever trying to expand into our territory, only held back by Turks, Persians and Arabs, who served as front-lines.

We did the same, but we were pushed back. Regardless of what you think, Islam has shaped the political/ethnical/linguistic/genetical landscape of west-Asia. Even if you abandon Islamic beliefs you cannot abandon your race, which what the religion has become an extension of. I'd never promote Islam amongst whites, because not only are they a foreign race, but one that has declared itself our mortal, and has during numerous times, even before the rise of Islam, tried their best to destroy us and subjugate us.

Hence why I don't want any whites to be Muslims. To me the egalitarian aspect within Islam only applies to west-Asian nations and their neighbours(the nations that have been with islam for a long time, until they adopted as their main belief-system and ideological framework). The rest are misguided open-ended policies that do not take into account important elements within Islamic history. Islam is only meant to convert the faithful. And since whites can never be faithful to the ideas of Islam, because their civilization is an antagonist to the west-Asian civilization. Their conversions are false and a grave mistake. A point within islam is to convert only those who're racially compatible with islam.

Re: Too late to leave?

PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 3:21 am
by Ali Sina
Islam has essentially become our race. It has become the ideological framework(the belief-system) which differentiates us from the racial other.


Okay, I have no problem with that, as long as you bring a statement from al Azhar saying what you say and stop converting the people of other races. This would be great and I promise that I will stop criticizing Islam. Once the highest Sunni and Shiite authorities announce that Islam is about race, I will end all hostilities with it.'

My problem is this hypocrisy of Muslims who on one hand claim Islam is the religion of all mankind and on the other, when you criticize it, suddenly it become their race and call us racist.

Re: Too late to leave?

PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 10:06 am
by Qutuzistan
Ali Sina wrote:
Islam has essentially become our race. It has become the ideological framework(the belief-system) which differentiates us from the racial other.


Okay, I have no problem with that, as long as you bring a statement from al Azhar saying what you say and stop converting the people of other races. This would be great and I promise that I will stop criticizing Islam. Once the highest Sunni and Shiite authorities announce that Islam is about race, I will end all hostilities with it.'

My problem is this hypocrisy of Muslims who on one hand claim Islam is the religion of all mankind and on the other, when you criticize it, suddenly it become their race and call us racist.


It's my interpretation of Islam, I'm sure the clear majority of most muslim clerics would not agree with me. They'd rather destroy their rivals than admit that their interpretations are orthadox and obsolete. Besides mr.Ali Sina I wonder how you feel about siding with people who want to destroy your own race. How do you justify siding with Anglo-saxon derived chauvinists? Who vehemently want to annihilate your indo-iranian brethren and call your people ragheads, sandniggers and call for the total annihilation of the middle-east? Religion aside, you do realize that they will never view you as an equal, regardless if you sacrificed yourself in the name of western values and colored your hair blonde and put on blue lenses. Only the west-asian nations will carry your legacy. You don't seem to care about the extermination of your own kind at all, rather treat it with absolute indifference. You think abandoning islam, being polemicially critical towards muslim/islam will turn you into a white westerner?

You know my biggest gripe with people who leave islam, isn't the abandonment of the faith itself, but it's their naive embrace of civilizations that are antagonistic towards their own kind. You think embracing western values, hating islam, contributing to destruction of your own people, will lead you to become equal in the white westerners mind? Did you forget that your name is ali sina and not al spinner? Maybe when they have exterminated us all, every last west-asian, you can finally sigh and truly rejoice in the death of your people. There are no more 350-400 million of us in the world divided betweens 100s of nations. All meanwhile you support agendas that will destroy them.

Re: Too late to leave?

PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 10:20 pm
by Ali Sina
This is the problem with Islam. Each person has his own interpretation of it. For some Muslims Islam must be imposed on others with force and for others there is no compulsion in religion. We should not pay attention to how Muslims interpret their religion. We have to see what Muhammad said and what Muslims have turned into as the result of Islam. They have turned into hatemongering zombies who will happily kill others. You are a perfect example.

I am too happy to see Muslims destroy themselves. I have no problem with them and wish all parties success. It’s when they kill the non-Muslims, the apostates, the Christians, the Jews, the Hindus and the Buddhists that I take a stance.
“Besides mr.Ali Sina I wonder how you feel about siding with people who want to destroy your own race.”


I already explained that Islam is not my race or anybody’s race. My race is human and my ethnicity is Persian. None has anything to do with Islam. Both have been undermined by Islam. By destroying Islam I am helping both humanity and my culture.

I side with humanity and all good people in the world, whether white, black red or purple. I side with all religions that do not promote hatred of other humans. This “us versus them” that is part of your Islamic psyche is the sickness that Muhammad brought to the world. I am cured from it and I try to cure others from it. We are not us and them. We are humans. Sa’di, the Persian poet says, we are members of one body. Those who can’t see this oneness in humanity and are not affected by the pain of others cannot be called human.

I said that I am too happy to see Muslims kill each other. Well, that is not really true. It saddens me but that is the path they have taken. I am doing my best to awaken them and make them see their folly. But if they are not going to awaken, then it is better that they kill each other than kill innocent people who don't believe in their ideology of hate.

The Anglo Saxons are not calling for the total annihilation of the Middle East. These lies are what Islam makes you believe. The modus operandi is very clear. Nazis did the same. Communists do the same. Evil individuals want to come to power by dividing people. They instill hatred of others in their followers. Demonize the other and claim false victimhood for themselves. None of that has to be true. You can use lies to make one group feel victimized. Then these people become killing machines, full of rage full of hate. They will be too happy to die in order to kill their perceived enemy. Muhammad conquered with this strategy and Muslims continue doing so.

The white race is not against the Middle Eastern people. This lie is too obvious by the fact that so many people from the Islamic countries have migrated and try to migrate to western countries and won’t go back. If they were mistreated or discriminated against, why they don’t go back? Why they keep coming? But what is Islam without lies? A Muslim who does not lie is no longer a Muslim. A Muslim who is free of hate is no longer a Muslim. A Muslim who does not live in the delusional world of fantasy is no longer a Muslim. A Muslim that can see humanity as one family is no longer a Muslim. If lies are eliminated, Islam will cease to exist. That is my project.