Too late to leave?

Share your experiences of having a Muslim in a relationship, as a friend or family member
Raj_Flower
Posts: 30
Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2013 9:24 am

Re: Too late to leave?

Post by Raj_Flower »

I think it speaks volumes what this man Qutu has reacted with. You cannot easily explain truth. Seems simple. Put one leg forward then the other and its walking.

I honestly held out my hand and said hold it and walk with me for a while and notice what you see. Just simple things. Path ways are so ingrained in the moslems at the start that it leads them to make massive mistakes in otherwise simple thinking.

This make me think I am underestimating my wife's reaction. It's going to polarise. We dont normally sit and chat but sure I will give Ali Sinas recommendation at try. Just waiting for the time to introduce it. Will leave it lying around.

I certainly don't want that Islamic belief placed on the children. Neither would they, her family and my parents, want the opposite.

Lots of thoughts are going in my head. I want to come out of this stronger. Its a path that I want to take. I have eliminated that this is not a usual mid-life crises.

I have been weak to end up like this. What remainder of life I have I want to be open and I want the children to be living free from mental shackles.

I am sure I can share useful information with you. My writing my not be the best but I think I will try to explain in what little times I have am going through and for advise.

I have figured out all of you who are wise and do not want to see a drama. I will come out when the time is right.

Thanks

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StrongLove
Posts: 657
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 4:05 pm

Re: Too late to leave?

Post by StrongLove »

"There are none so blind as those who will not see. The most deluded people are those who choose to ignore what they already know"

Thomas Chalkley’.


I do not believe you have been weak. It takes courage & honest (A type of honesty most people I know aren't strong enough to engage in) to examine what those around us say is truth.

Every person on earth ,at one point in their life, either chooses to face facts or ignore the truth. Every one of us chooses to follow our conscience or ignore it & follow the easier selfish road.

You do what is best for your loved ones. Time will tell if you can help them. It may be that you help only a few but it's trying that counts. The trying is what allows us to sleep at night & look in the mirror without shame. To me it's what we each try to accomplish that defines us as people.

You are much needed here. You understand more than most what islam does to a person, a family & society. You may be able to help allot of people & they in turn may help many more. And by discussing islam with others here you will learn the best way to help those close to you.
" The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property - either as a child, a wife, or a concubine - must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men."

Winston Churchill

Raj_Flower
Posts: 30
Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2013 9:24 am

Re: Too late to leave?

Post by Raj_Flower »

Sad reflective glass of vodka

Loneliness

Belonging to a subset of society

A secret subset

Belonging to both but none

Living with unwarranted guilt

To mention Socrates seems too lofty

A worthy life with eyes that see too well too clearly and a brain that is sharp like a knife.

Times u wish it was blunted- ignorant and know no better.

And a cultural thing folks- I fear I will not be able to do the right at my dads funeral. A relief but at the time stress as exactly what does the wider family expect me to do.

I now think I will never see the Kaaba. I so wanted to smear it with faeces as my art. How on earth for this earthly bricks became the centre for 5 times a day bowing is a measure of how idiotic many people's brain is.

Madina. The grave of the sexually greedy founder.

Back to my wife and kids. Damn if either could get onto PPE like hitchens at Oxford I would shout take a full page advert in the times and declare my apostasy.

That's all I want. Them to be free. Never to look back.

Then me. Take me or don't take me. I am me. I won't have to put on this act anymore.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6lxASAsI7c&sns" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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enceladus
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Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 11:00 pm

Re: Too late to leave?

Post by enceladus »

Raj_Flower wrote: (snip)
And a cultural thing folks- I fear I will not be able to do the right at my dads funeral. A relief but at the time stress as exactly what does the wider family expect me to do.

Hmm..... (thinking about that for a while....)
Given that funerals are often a time that emotions are close to the surface for those there, I would suggest not going to it. You could send flowers and a card instead.

My reasoning? Even though it would be a really good and nice thing to do, I believe that the kindness of your attending would be lost upon the others there. All they would be able to see (or think about) would be the presence of a non-Muslim. They'd be "blinded" to your gesture in attending, however good or noble the intention (and it is indeed very good).

I tend to go with the approach that if someone (be they a group or an individual) is unable or unwilling to appreciate the kindness of an act that you do, then there is not much point in doing it.

If you loved your dad, I'm sure he would have known it. That's what counts.

In summary - non-Muslims and Muslims really do not go well together. Now that you have joined the non-Muslim world, I suggest that it's time to get away from anything to do with Islam (apart from this forum, of course.) Others may disagree, but if I were you, I'd be looking to put some distance between myself and the Muslim relatives.
Raj_Flower wrote: I now think I will never see the Kaaba. I so wanted to smear it with faeces as my art.

Yep, I reckon I'd want to do much the same thing if I were an ex-Muslim rather than a born-and-bred infidel..... ;)
Raj_Flower wrote: How on earth for this earthly bricks became the centre for 5 times a day bowing is a measure of how idiotic many people's brain is.
.
Yes indeed. It just goes to show how effective the imams and mullahs are. Thank goodness there are many people like yourself who have seen through their nonsense and have left the cult of Islam.
Raj_Flower wrote: Madina. The grave of the sexually greedy founder.

Back to my wife and kids. Damn if either could get onto PPE like hitchens at Oxford I would shout take a full page advert in the times and declare my apostasy.

That's all I want. Them to be free. Never to look back.

A very excellent wish it is too! I very much hope that it comes true.
Raj_Flower wrote: Then me. Take me or don't take me. I am me. I won't have to put on this act anymore.
Good on you!
Undermining Islam -
http://forum09.faithfreedom.org/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=15110

Refuting "divine Quran" -
http://forum09.faithfreedom.org/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=11329

Refuting a Quran verse -
http://forum09.faithfreedom.org/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=13098

Qutuzistan
Posts: 144
Joined: Sat May 01, 2010 12:11 pm

Re: Too late to leave?

Post by Qutuzistan »

@enceladus
Tell me, Anglo-Saxon, what do you have to offer this guy, now that you have brainwashed him into hating his own people? You've turned him against his own people, and now he's going to be one of your colored lap-dogs. What could you possibly offer him, save for misery and alienation? Detachment from his culture and people? Turn him into identity less generic brown man in the masses of disenfranchised minorities in the west. His lineage will degenerate into becoming an underclass in the societies of the whites.

@Raj-Flowers
I'm telling you man. There is no freedom for your kind in the west. Don't turn into one of those sad and miserable African-Americans who live as a despised underclass in American society. You'll turn your children into rootless people. These people don't care about you, why should they? They're a bunch of arrogant whites who despise your kind, more than anything. Even if they destroyed Islam tomorrow and every Muslim converted to Christianity or abandoned faith for atheism, do you think they would see you as an equal? These people don't care about you, they only care about turning you against your own people and your fellow Muslims. So that they can see a competing belief system destroyed. They will do to you, like what they did to the north-African tirailleurs. After they've used you to fight their competitors, they will throw you away like trash. Do you really think, that there is a place for brown people like you, in their society? The same people who genocided Jews. Who lived in Europe for over 2000 years. It's not even about judo-christianity+atheism versus Islam, secular legislation versus Sharia law. It's about them, controlling the rest of the world, controlling your and my people, and the people of the third-world. Have you ever seen one of these socially conservative anti-Islam people, condemn a single attack by western military forces against non-white civilians, regardless if they were Muslim or not. Their scorn for people like us, isn't grounded in simple hatred of Islam. It's racial as well. Have you not heard to how they refer to people of the middle-east, as sand-niggers and racial inferiors? How they mock our culture and ways and feel nothing but animosity and patronizing disdain for us.

Listen to me, by them turning you into an atheist, and encouraging you to criticize islam, they blind you from their own civilizations deeds, they blind you from how they truly view your people and your race. They view indians and pakistanis as backward savages, third world trash, worthless scum. They don't care if you've become an enlightened atheist/christian. In their eyes, you're nothing more than racial inferior, and they have power to abuse you and displace you whenever they want to. Their animosity isn't entirely against Islam, their animosity is also towards your kind. Listen I don't care if you've turned atheist. Just think about it, don't detach yourself from your people, don't turn against your own kind, not when they need you the most.

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manfred
Posts: 11553
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:29 pm

Re: Too late to leave?

Post by manfred »

Qutuzistan

You really are quite taken by this, and you do your best to be as unhelpful as possible. In your own way you are probably driving Raj-flower away from Islam more rapidly than anyone else possibly could, even if that is what they wanted.

First of all, your obsession with skin colour is broadly frowned upon in ANY Western country. You will not find broad acceptance of these notions in the "developed" world. You make all sorts of assumptions about people. For example, you assume I am one of those white people you like to caricature and who you hate so much. I reality my skin colour will be much like yours. To me the colour of a human being's skin is merely a biological adaptation to the environment. You may know that humans are by FAR the LEAST genetically diverse species of all primates. So, we have "races" for humans, a whole host of them even, and we don't talk about races of chimpanzees or other primates, do we? Have you ever wondered why? Afterall they are many times more diverse than us.


Now, I really take issue with a couple of your ideas:

1) Nobody wants to "turn" anybody into anything. That is why we are called faithFREEDOM. Our ideal is for people to study religious teachings and practices, particularly those of Islam, and to evaluate them.We want people to THINK for THEMSELVES. Where ever that leads. We particularly value people like "eagle" who with great patience tries to show us why Islam is true. He is quite wrong, but his contributions are valuable because they help the evaluation process.

2) I don't subscribe to your tribal attitude to religion, as if Islam defines you as a "race". The issue is only if it is reasonable to believe that Islam may be TRUE. The follow on question must be if Islam can be a force for good in this world. I am convinced that neither is the case. We are first and foremost ALL, including you, just people. We are all the same, and none is better or worse than another because of where they were born, where they live, how much cash they have, or what religion they follow. It is what we make of the situations that we find ourselves in, that causes divisions. We have enough inequality in the world, and we don't need Islam to divide us even more.

3) To leave or change one's religion is not a "betrayal". It is the exercise of one's conscience. It is unhealthy in the extreme to force yourself to believe things you are not really sure of or to follow practices you don't agree with, purely in order to "belong" to some group or another. This is the most base reason to be part of a religion, unworthy of any human being. It seems, Islam does not even care about that, as long as you shout "allah akhbar" whenever it is demanded of you and are SEEN to do all the things you are meant to do as Muslim. What goes on in people's heads is completely ignored. That is why many Muslims, like you, are full of cognitive dissonance.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

Qutuzistan
Posts: 144
Joined: Sat May 01, 2010 12:11 pm

Re: Too late to leave?

Post by Qutuzistan »

manfred wrote:Qutuzistan

You really are quite taken by this, and you do your best to be as unhelpful as possible. In your own way you are probably driving Raj-flower away from Islam more rapidly than anyone else possibly could, even if that is what they wanted.

First of all, your obsession with skin colour is broadly frowned upon in ANY Western country. You will not find broad acceptance of these notions in the "developed" world. You make all sorts of assumptions about people. For example, you assume I am one of those white people you like to caricature and who you hate so much. I reality my skin colour will be much like yours. To me the colour of a human being's skin is merely a biological adaptation to the environment. You may know that humans are by FAR the LEAST genetically diverse species of all primates. So, we have "races" for humans, a whole host of them even, and we don't talk about races of chimpanzees or other primates, do we? Have you ever wondered why? Afterall they are many times more diverse than us.
What you say can only exist in utopia! I mean really, where do you live? How have you avoided reality for so long? Do you think the entire world consists of liberal, tolerant people, save for Islamic world? Do you understand that what i described is a part of reality. Regardless if whether you choose to believe in it or not. The fact that someone like you chose not to put importance on it, doesn't invalidate it as a fundamental marker in social relationships, all around the world. What you think socities all around have overcame this? The world is rife with ethnic conflicts, and structural racism. I mean heck have you forgotten world history? Does 20th century historical developments mean nothing to you? Just because the establishment in the west temporarily has a politically correct and egalitarian agenda, doesn't mean racism doesn't exist. It's not broadly frowned upon. Your just expected to broadly frown on it. Show me deracialized society and i will show you a pig that can fly.


manfred wrote: 1) Nobody wants to "turn" anybody into anything. That is why we are called faithFREEDOM. Our ideal is for people to study religious teachings and practices, particularly those of Islam, and to evaluate them.We want people to THINK for THEMSELVES. Where ever that leads. We particularly value people like "eagle" who with great patience tries to show us why Islam is true. He is quite wrong, but his contributions are valuable because they help the evaluation process.
Faith freedom means nothing. Your rhetoric is not objective and free of its tendencies. You guys are not trying be truthful. You're not showing him the consequences of his actions. You just have an agenda to convert anyone muslim to atheism/christianity/non-islam religion. This guy is vulnerable, because he's swayed by what he thinks will alleviate his troubles, but will only exchange his troubles for other troubles.
manfred wrote: 2) I don't subscribe to your tribal attitude to religion, as if Islam defines you as a "race". The issue is only if it is reasonable to believe that Islam may be TRUE. The follow on question must be if Islam can be a force for good in this world. I am convinced that neither is the case. We are first and foremost ALL, including you, just people. We are all the same, and none is better or worse than another because of where they were born, where they live, how much cash they have, or what religion they follow. It is what we make of the situations that we find ourselves in, that causes divisions. We have enough inequality in the world, and we don't need Islam to divide us even more.

Lol... you think islam is a division? And yes, it is a race. Not neccesary as a biological entity, but a social one. Islam has had a great influence in shaping the islamic world, culturally, ethically, even genetically. People associate us with Islam rather than our respective nations and languages. It has become our super-national identity. Our race.
manfred wrote: 3) To leave or change one's religion is not a "betrayal". It is the exercise of one's conscience. It is unhealthy in the extreme to force yourself to believe things you are not really sure of or to follow practices you don't agree with, purely in order to "belong" to some group or another. This is the most base reason to be part of a religion, unworthy of any human being. It seems, Islam does not even care about that, as long as you shout "allah akhbar" whenever it is demanded of you and are SEEN to do all the things you are meant to do as Muslim. What goes on in people's heads is completely ignored. That is why many Muslims, like you, are full of cognitive dissonance.
I'm not asking him to believe or accept islamic beliefs or even do islamic practices. I'm just telling him not to abandon Muslims and his community. Because if he does, he has nowhere else to go. He will be reduced to be a rootless brown guy, not fitting in anywhere. The west is stratified divided society, it is multi-ethnic and so it's divided. With the whites on top and the most marginalized colored ethnicities on the bottom. Who will he turn to? Even in the most cosmopolitan cities, you see that there is no free intermingling. If he abandons his community and his people. Who will he turn to? Whites? Whites only care about other whites! Blacks? They'll not even give him the time of the day, and tell him to **** off to his asian neighbourhood. If he loses his ties to his community and his culture, he will become rootless, because no other community will accept him. non-white Immigrants in his country, are messed up identity-wise, because they're never regarded as true and full britons, the same way a white english or white scot is.

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enceladus
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Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 11:00 pm

Re: Too late to leave?

Post by enceladus »

Qutuzistan wrote:Even in the most cosmopolitan cities, you see that there is no free intermingling.


Absolutely correct, and whose fault is that???

Which CULT brings its people to the West and then proceeds to congregate in cult-only ghettoes where non-cult members are not welcome?

Which cult preaches hatred of non-cult members?

Not Buddhists. Not Hindus, Jews or Taoists. (Sure, there are Hindu (Indian) communities in the West, but non-Hindus are still very welcome).

Muslims.

It is Islam that has created the situation where those who leave the cult are shunned by those still in it. WE didn't do that, so it is rich indeed for you to mention "lack of support" when it is your own cult that treats apostates the worst.

If (say) a Christian in the West decides to become (say) Buddhist, most of his friends may be surprised, but the majority would stick by him. That is NOT the case with a person who leaves the sick CULT of Islam. So much for "caring about the person".

Manfred is spot-on. We are about *critical thinking.* Raj has done some *excellent* critical thinking and seems to have decided (correctly) that Islam is nonsense and lies.
He is not alone in having reached that conclusion. Many many millions have done so before him (and will continue to do so).

Having decided that, it is up to Raj to find his own path (as Ali Sina and tens of millions of others have done), and at least he will be guided on that path by TRUTH - not the lies of Islam.

Your seeming "sympathy" is crocodile-tears, Q. Does Islam not say that apostates should be punished? If you disagree with that, you are going against your own religion.

No-one is saying that the path for Raj will be easy, but we *do* care about apostates.
All that Muslims care about is getting them back into their *cult*.
- enceladus
Last edited by enceladus on Sat Mar 16, 2013 11:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Undermining Islam -
http://forum09.faithfreedom.org/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=15110

Refuting "divine Quran" -
http://forum09.faithfreedom.org/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=11329

Refuting a Quran verse -
http://forum09.faithfreedom.org/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=13098

Qutuzistan
Posts: 144
Joined: Sat May 01, 2010 12:11 pm

Re: Too late to leave?

Post by Qutuzistan »

enceladus wrote:
Qutuzistan wrote:Even in the most cosmopolitan cities, you see that there is no free intermingling.


Absolutely correct, and whose fault is that???

Which CULT brings its people to the West and then proceeds to congregate in cult-only ghettoes where non-cult members are not welcome?

Which cult preaches hatred of non-cult members?

Not Buddhists. Not Hindus, Jews or Taoists. (Sure, there are Hindu (Indian) communities in the West, but non-Hindus are still very welcome).


Muslims.
Listen you mentally confused white anglo-saxon. You hate islam as much as it contradicts your own values, as it is foreign. You hate muslims, because they're brown. Why don't you mention black ghettoes or east-asian ghettoes? Why don't you mention the ethnic strife in your own country? Are you afraid that if you do, you'll see the flaw in your own society? You have nothing to offer him. Besides, i thought you stuck to your own kind. Why should muslim communities be open to arrogant westerners who hate them, not only because they're muslim, but also because of their race. You lie when you say that it's only muslims. It every non-white ethnic community in london. Whether they're chinese, west-indie africans, south asians, or arabs. It's not an islamic problem, it's as much about religion as it is about ethnicity. More so ethnicity. You can't explain f.ex why i feel closer to a christian from my country, than a muslim indonesian or a muslim bosnian.

Your hiding your racial hate behind the veneer of religion. Islam and Muslims has become a codeword for middle-eastern wog. Whenever you want to be racist against pakis/middle-easterners, you take stereotypes of them and then say it's "Islam that causes them to behave this way". When in reality you're just attacking their ethnicity or negative cultural trends, not the belief system itself.

So really, mr.ingeniousladus, stop lying.
enceladus wrote: Manfred is spot-on. We are about *critical thinking.* Raj has done some *excellent* critical thinking and seems to have decided (correctly) that Islam is nonsense and lies.
He is not alone in having reached that conclusion. Many many millions have done so before him (and will continue to do so).

Having decided that, it is up to Raj to find his own path (as Ali Sina and tens of millions of others have done), and at least he will be guided on that path by TRUTH - not the lies of Islam.

Your seeming "sympathy" is crocodile-tears, Q. Does Islam not say that apostates should be punished? If you disagree with that, you are going against your own religion.

No-one is saying that the path for Raj will be easy, but we *do* care about apostates.
All that Muslims care about is getting them back into their *cult*.
- enceladus
Tell me, good white man. What do you have to offer him? Can you answer my question? Why do you deny that your society disenfranchises and renders non-whites rootless? Why do you deny that the alienation of colored people in your society stems from the social structure of your society? If this guy became atheist, will you welcome him the same way you'd a White Anglo-Saxon christian? Will your society do that? No. He'll always be a foreigner in your society. So regardless of him being Muslim or not. He's a permanent outsider. So him sticking to his community and maintaining his identity, is better than him dissolving in the misery and rootlessness of your racialized "free" society. Where his identity, will permanently be one of alienation.

So please kindly, stop lying. Or address my questions. So far you've avoided to discuss the issues entirely.
Last edited by Qutuzistan on Sun Mar 17, 2013 12:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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enceladus
Posts: 2069
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 11:00 pm

Re: Too late to leave?

Post by enceladus »

Qutuzistan wrote: Listen you mentally confused white anglo-saxon. You hate islam as much as it contradicts your own values, as it is foreign.


Wrong. I hate Islam because it is *violent* and preaches hatred to non-Muslims.

I hate no-one because they are brown. Heck, one of my favourite candidates for the US election in 2012 was Allen West. He is black, and he understands that islam is an evil cult.
( I followed the US elections because they are a big thing - not because I'm there - I'm not. )
Qutuzistan wrote: You hate muslims, because they're brown. Why don't you mention black ghettoes or east-asian ghettoes?

These ghettoes do not exist in my country (which is not the US or UK and which I will not name..... ;)
Qutuzistan wrote: Why don't you mention the ethnic strife in your own country? Are you afraid that if you do, you'll see the flaw in your own society?

What "ethnic strife" is this? Are you talking about the US?
Anyway - you have not disproved what I said. You are trying to move things off-topic.
Qutuzistan wrote: Tell me, good white man. What do you have to offer him? Can you answer my question? Why do you deny that your society disenfranchizes and renders non-whites rootless? Why do you deny that the alienation of colored people in your society stems from the social structure of your society? If this guy became atheist, will you welcome him the same way you'd a White anglo-saxon christian? Will your society do that? No. He'll always be a foreigner in your society. So regardless of him being muslim or not. He's a permanent outsider. So him sticking to his community, is better than him dissolving in your "freedom".
Gee.... it is rich indeed for a Muslim to go on about how "bad" our society is...... ;)

If our society is so "bad", then why do so many people from poor countries want to come to the West?

If YOUR society is so "good", then why do so many people want to leave Islamic countries?
- enceladus
Undermining Islam -
http://forum09.faithfreedom.org/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=15110

Refuting "divine Quran" -
http://forum09.faithfreedom.org/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=11329

Refuting a Quran verse -
http://forum09.faithfreedom.org/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=13098

Qutuzistan
Posts: 144
Joined: Sat May 01, 2010 12:11 pm

Re: Too late to leave?

Post by Qutuzistan »

enceladus wrote: Listen you mentally confused white anglo-saxon. You hate islam as much as it contradicts your own values, as it is foreign.


Wrong. I hate Islam because it is *violent* and preaches hatred to non-Muslims.

I hate no-one because they are brown. Heck, one of my favourite candidates for the US election in 2012 was Allen West. He is black, and he understands that islam is an evil cult.
( I followed the US elections because they are a big thing - not because I'm there - I'm not. )

That means sh!t. You like Allen West, because he's an uncle tom, who can appeal to you prejudices. His grievances are the same as yours. Not because you respect him or consider him an equal.
Enceladus wrote: These ghettoes do not exist in my country (which is not the US or UK and which I will not name..... ;)

So where are you from then? Switzerland? If you live in the west, your society is racialized by default. UK/USA are actually the most progressed in those matters. Your country must be even worse in that matter. Please tell me where you're from, and i will dispell your BS. I'm putting my money on Scandinavia. You're probably Norwegian/Swede with their abject denial of racial issues.
Enceladus wrote: What "ethnic strife" is this? Are you talking about the US?
Anyway - you have not disproved what I said. You are trying to move things off-topic.

Why should I address something which is entirely skewered. Do apostates get killed in the Islamic world? Yes. Do they get killed en-mass? no. Most Muslims, even the most religious ones are hypocrites about their religion. Islam is never followed to the letter by the common man. Only fundamentalists are interested in killing apostates however.

Now that I have addressed your question. Can you address mine?
Enceladus wrote:
Gee.... it is rich indeed for a Muslim to go on about how "bad" our society is...... ;)

If our society is so "bad", then why do so many people from poor countries want to come to the West?

If YOUR society is so "good", then why do so many people want to leave Islamic countries?
- enceladus
[/quote]
Our societies aren't perfect, but they're designed for people like him and myself. You're bypassing the criticism. Do you deny that there is racial discrimination and that western societies are racialized? Are those criticisms faulty and made up?
Moderator's Message:
please do not misquote. Enceladus did not write the open sentence your post, you did.
Last edited by Qutuzistan on Sun Mar 17, 2013 12:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

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manfred
Posts: 11553
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:29 pm

Re: Too late to leave?

Post by manfred »

A "social race"?? :lotpot:

All you are doing is to repeat the Quranic mantra that you are part of the "best of people" while are that are non-Muslims are the "worst of people".

And then you are seriously asking how Islam causes division?

It is also saying a lot that you have not asked Raj-flower even once what exactly he finds hard to believe or come to terms with in Islam. Obviously you don't even care about that.

To you, it's all about belonging to the "tribe". Leaving is "betrayal" or even "treason", punishable by death. The reasons for leaving are irrelevant.

All you are trying to do is to scare raj-flower into apparent compliance, by painting the darkest spectre of life away from Islam that you can. No discussion, explanation, debate, just a brow-beating with irrational fears.

You asked me how I have avoided reality? Obviously you know very little of Western countries. Your religion tells you you may not make friends with those outside it, so you take refuge in your prejudice. Well, guess what, if you don't want to be part of the country you live in, nobody is making you. It's not perfect, by a long shot, but I find your racial stereotypes quite crazy, and lacking any basis in fact. As I told you before, if you want to put this "social race" to the test, please get a job in Saudi Arabia and see just how much you are part of the "clan". Then compare that to how welcome you are in Scandinavia.

Raj-flower will understand that he does NOT get any prize or special consideration for deciding Islam behind. Nobody does. But he will get integrity, and a feeling of being at peace with himself, because he refuses to lie to himself. That is worth something. I would say it's worth more than money, power or recognition.

As to "deserting his own people", well, it is a really the other way round. He is not pushing his family away, but his family may push HIM away. He is not doing the deserting, he worried that he will BE DESERTED, and that is why he want this discussion. He wants to explore ways by which he can teach his family to accept as who he is, not merely as who they want him to be.

I am sad that you have managed to high-jack this thread with your stuff, in a way, but it also shows exactly the kind of thing he has to deal with.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

Qutuzistan
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Re: Too late to leave?

Post by Qutuzistan »

manfred wrote:A "social race"?? :lotpot:
Why is that wrong? Weren't the irish in america, abjectly considered an inferior race by anglo-saxons in britain and america? Because they were catholics? What is so hard to understand about this?
manfred wrote: All you are doing is to repeat the Quranic mantra that you are part of the "best of people" while are that are non-Muslims are the "worst of people".
Quote me where i say that?
manfred wrote: And then you are seriously asking how Islam causes division?
a
It is also saying a lot that you have not asked Raj-flower even once what exactly he finds hard to believe or come to terms with in Islam. Obviously you don't even care about that.
Because I'm not against questioning or doubting things within faith, I'm not against him criticizing islam or disbelieving in things. I'm however strongly against him becoming westernized and losing his ethnic/cultural identity which is strongly tied to islam. Because he'll destroy himself and his lineage.
manfred wrote: To you, it's all about belonging to the "tribe". Leaving is "betrayal" or even "treason", punishable by death. The reasons for leaving are irrelevant.
He can leave if he wants, good on him. I'm not interested in touching a hair on his head. I'm only warning him of the consequences of him leaving. I'm not interested in seeing him being killed.
manfred wrote: All you are trying to do is to scare raj-flower into apparent compliance, by painting the darkest spectre of live away from Islam that you can. No discussion, explanation, debate, just a brow-beating with irrational fears.
What do you want me to explain? Give me questions, and i will answer them.
manfred wrote: You asked me how I have avoided reality? Obviously you know very little of Western countries. Your religion tells you you may not make friends with those outside it, so take refuge in your prefudice. Well, guess what, if you don't want to be part of the country you live in, nobody is making you. It's not perfect, by a long shot, but I find your racial stereotypes quite crazy, and lacking any basis in fact. As I told you before, if you wan to put this "social race" to the test, please get a job in Saudi Arabia and see just how much you are part of the "clan". Then compare that to how welcome you are in Scandinavia.
For sure, that is one piece in the hadith. Yet I have friends of many faiths, and I don't feel like that has gone against my faith or made me less righteous. Rather it has made me adjusted and understanding of others. Regarding race and ethnicity, that is something else however.

What do you mean racial stereotypes? Where has what i said lacked basis? I have family who lived in Saudi-Arabia, they had no trouble fitting in at all. All you need to be do is speak Arabic and be a Sunni. My Uncle was a university teacher there. The relatives I have in Europe however, largely became unsuccessful. Because the societies there favored indigenous whites above everyone else.
manfred wrote: Raj-flower will understand that he does NOT get any prize or special consideration for deciding Islam behind. Nobody does. But he will get integrity, and a feeling of being at peace with himself, because he refuses to lie to himself. That is worth something. I would say it's worth more than money, power or recognition.
What an abstract load of baloney. He will have no community and no social circles. His life will include empty shallow relationships with whites and other race
s who'll never fully accept him. Dead-end relationships that mean nothing. He will live as an outsider, in a divided society like the UK, for the remainder of his life. All immigrants I've known, all minorities, who live in the UK. Feel disenfranchised and outside of society. It's even worse for those who try to assimilate into mainstream society.
manfred wrote: As to "deserting his own people", well, it is a really the other way round. He is not pushing his family away, but his family may push HIM away. He is not doing the deserting, he worried that he will BE DESERTED, and that is why he want this discussion. He wants to explore ways by which he can teach his family to accept as who he is, not merely as who they want him to be.

I am sad that you have managed to high-jack this thread with you stuff, in a way, but it also shows exactly the kind of thing he has to deal with.
I have to tell him reality. Something you don't seem to have a grasp of.
Last edited by Qutuzistan on Sun Mar 17, 2013 12:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Ibn Rushd
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Re: Too late to leave?

Post by Ibn Rushd »

Well the thread has lost its original intent entirely.

I think what Ali Sina said you should follow, you can wait until your kids are off to uni., that way they will have a better start instead of going to pot now with unknown reactions from others. I often find that Muslim women when informed their husband is a fake believer or murtad that they will not love them anymore, the love was conditional on being Muslim. This is not love of any kind.

If you have questions for me, please pm, because this thread isn't working anymore for your topic. :no1:
There is no Master but the Master, and QT-1 is his Prophet.

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Qutuzistan
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Re: Too late to leave?

Post by Qutuzistan »

Ibn Rushd wrote:Well the thread has lost its original intent entirely.

I think what Ali Sina said you should follow, you can wait until your kids are off to uni., that way they will have a better start instead of going to pot now with unknown reactions from others. I often find that Muslim women when informed their husband is a fake believer or murtad that they will not love them anymore, the love was conditional on being Muslim. This is not love of any kind.

If you have questions for me, please pm, because this thread isn't working anymore for your topic. :no1:
What you mean, is that it's not working for your own encouragements. Because someone has challenged you and made it harder for you to get away with your rhetoric. Why don't you address me and provide proof and evidence that I'm wrong.

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manfred
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Re: Too late to leave?

Post by manfred »

So, according to you Islam is a "race". Not only a race, but a race you can JOIN, by saying certain words, and leaving is offensive to you, but not impossible. Do you know how insane that sounds?

You mention that "Irish" is a "race" to. So, what the the correct words to join them? Is it "Leprechaun, leprechaun,leprechaun" or is it "Will you be having a coppa tea then, dear? No trouble at all at all!"

And what is the punishment for leaving?

I arrived in the UK many years ago, all alone. I made friends easy enough. It is a case of making an effort, and respecting others. It is utter nonsense that somehow life as you know it ceases once you leave Islam. It shows your insecurity that you are envisioning such a bleak future for people who leave Islam. Talk to some who have. Iffo would be a good person to ask. In terms of skin tone, which matters such a lot to you, he would be a good match to you.

It seems that the only thing that keeps you attached to Islam is a primitive sense of tribal belonging, and an indoctrinated fear of the world at large.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

Qutuzistan
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Re: Too late to leave?

Post by Qutuzistan »

manfred wrote:So, according to you Islam is a "race". Not only a race, but a race you can JOIN, by saying certain words, and leaving is offensive to you, but not impossible. Do you know how insane that sounds?
No, Islam is not a race per say. But it has been racialized. And the Irish, despite their white-skin, were also racialized by Britons for being Catholics in protestant countries, hence why weren't considered white and were racialized. Islam isn't biologically consistent. But what you can say however, is that it's most important historical and adherents are in middle-east.
manfred wrote: And what is the punishment for leaving?
It depends. Some follow the verses "let there be no compulsion in religion" others say "Destroy the hypocrites" so Islam has a contradictory view on the issue of expatriates, but most devout Muslims just chose to reject expatriates, a small minority however chose to be violent. Personally speaking, I have no qualms with a Muslim leaving Islam. It's their choice, good for them, they can live happily ever after. What I'm firmly against however is their absolute rejection of their own community and their propensity to fall for untruthful rhetoric surrounding the Muslim communities all around the world. Because Islam is engrained in our culture, people conflate the culture with faith. They abandon their community for no good reason. Ethnicity is strongly bound by culture.

manfred wrote: I arrived in the UK many years ago, all alone. I made friends easy enough. It is a case of making an effort, and respecting others. It is utter nonsense that somehow life as you know it ceases once you leave Islam. It shows your insecurity that you are envisioning such a bleak future for people who leave Islam. Talk to some who have. Iffo would be a good person to ask. In terms of skin tone, which matters such a lot to you, he would be a good match to you.
Oh and I'm sure your liberal friends treat you with respect and care. And truly see you as a briton, the same way they'd view a white anglo-saxon :lotpot: . You're not more than colored pet to them. It's just pol itically incorrect to talk about it in the open. You mistake the liberal values of your friends, as acceptance. They're ok with you immigrating and being there, because they think it's trendy and that you're some sort of exotic pet to them. Not because they see you as an individual. Wait till Britain becomes poorer, and you'll see how all those friends you have will turn on you. Why don't you go to an ethnic neighborhood.
manfred wrote: It seems that the only thing that keeps you attached to Islam is a
primitive sense of tribal belonging, and an indoctrinated fear of the world at large.
I'm not fearful of the world at large. I just have a strong awareness of social relationships between groups. I've seen what happen to many people who reject their culture and community. They destroy themselves and dissolve. They're never fully assimilated, because assimilation requires being appearance-wise similar to the group you're assimilating into. So they end up f.cked up, like the countless new-world minorities. Tell me, how will he adjust to a society where he is alone and he's compelled to interact with people, who don't view him as a part of their group. And therefore don't really have a communitarian relationship with him. Just a shallow one. He'll just turn into a miserable colored guy.

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manfred
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Re: Too late to leave?

Post by manfred »

I makes me sad to think that you consider yourself as some kind of exotic pet because of your skin colour. To maintain such a warped idea while living in a Western country means you have completely cut yourself off from all around you and have retreated into a little ghetto. Here is a bit of news for you: ONLY you can decide what you want to be. If you want to be a pet, well, be a pet.

I can assure you nobody treats me like a pet, I know how to look after myself,and how to get along with others. The respect I get from others is not based on my skin colour, but on my approach to others, my skills, knowledge and achievements. I don't go round demanding respect because of my skin colour or my religion. I don't have to. I leave that to the local Muslims.

The general rule is the same here as in my home country: you get treated as you treat others.

It seems to me, though that you have not quite convinced your self of your own propaganda... why would you want to live in place like that? Why leave your tribal homeland and live in a self-imposed ghetto? And then you want to tell others about some awful fate that awaits them when they dare to do what any man should, and follow their own convictions? All you have done is show the world just how bankrupt Islam really is.

You don't have to "belong" to this or that "group". You can choose your "group" if you feel you need one. You can make it alone, or you can even start your own group. Whatever the course, there is a full life after Islam and without it, with challenges as well as opportunities.

You are still sitting in your cage being scared to look out. I would not be surprised if you live in an area considered by some as a "no go area" because it is full of people like you, who feel threatened by the otherness of others.

Finally, let me explain to you what Islam really is, now that you seem to be able to see that it is not a race. It is primarily a political ideology, disguised as a religion. It is a tool devised by Mohammed to appoint himself a leader of men and to help him to control people. It is not a race, and it is not a religion. The closest thing we have like it is Marxism or Fascism. Both have much in common with Islam, including the pseudo-religious component. I will elaborate, if this comparison intrigues you.

Yes, of course Islam unites people. Ask yourself why? Who first seriously benefited from this unification effect? Who is now re-discovering this effect? The leaders of places like Iran, Saudi Arabia and more recently, Egypt. Islam has very little to do with God, but a lot with control and power. It is its PURPOSE to unite, it have been invented for that reason, and it is working quite well.

You have been duped, my friend, and you need to take a good close look at Islam. If you have courage you take my advice. I don't even know you, so I have nothing to gain by telling you this. I wish you well, and I hope you will try and listen.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

Nosuperstition
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Re: Too late to leave?

Post by Nosuperstition »

Qutuzistan wrote:
Intelligent lad wrote:To all humans from the sub-continent
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0C08XX8 ... g&index=17" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
To all humans from Iran
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4_BfhrIxg8" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Let's fight together to throw away the yoke of Islam imposed on our forefathers.
Any true Muslim will listen to this, be gone with your heretical uncle-tom Hindu, you white-loving zero-dignity raj white wannabe, go put on more skin whitening cream, so that in the future the white man might accept you :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbkP6qEzN6A" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Perhaps as desertification increases,the Africans in Darfur region in Sudan who are only a tad different in color to their upper caste Arab marauders need to put on skin whitening cream so that the Arabs might in future accept them.
Last edited by Nosuperstition on Sun Mar 17, 2013 2:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
palli or halli in Dravidian languages means a village just like gaav in Aryan languages means a village.palli or halli in Aryan Mauryan Imperial era around 200 B.C designates a tribal hamlet.So many of those in South India are indeed descendants of tribals and are still keeping up that heritage.

Qutuzistan
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Re: Too late to leave?

Post by Qutuzistan »

manfred wrote:I makes me sad to think that you consider yourself as some kind of exotic pet because of your skin colour. To maintain such a warped idea while living in a Western country means you have completely cut yourself off from all around you and have retreated into a little ghetto. Here is a bit of news for you: ONLY you can decide what you want to be. If you want to be a pet, well, be a pet.
You don't seem to understand external reality. What I was trying to give you an idea of what a minority is viewed like the western world. A sort of like a pet. An abnormality. You took my analogy literally.
manfred wrote: I can assure you nobody treats me like a pet, I know how to look after myself,and how to get along with others. The respect I get from others is not based on my skin colour, but on my approach to others, my skills, knowledge and achievements. I don't go round demanding respect because of my skin colour or my religion. I don't have to. I leave that to the local Muslims.
You're too blind or too devoted to stupid sh!t to see reality.
manfred wrote: The general rule is the same here as in my home country: you get treated as you treat others.
baloney, I can give you statistics if you want to.
manfred wrote: It seems to me, though that you have not quite convinced your self of your own propaganda... why would you want to live in place like that? Why leave your tribal homeland and live in a self-imposed ghetto? And then you want to tell others about some awful fate that awaits them when they dare to do what any man should, and follow their own convictions? All you have done is show the world just how bankrupt Islam really is.
Self-imposed ghetto? Seriously you must be daft. You're a minority, and you have no idea about issues regarding that. Wow. You must be the sole immigrant in a village in the orkneys.
manfred wrote: You don't have to "belong" to this or that "group". You can choose your "group" if you feel you need one. You can make it alone, or you can even start your own group. Whatever the course, there is a full life after Islam and without it, with challenges as well as opportunities.
External identity, trumps internal identity.
manfred wrote: You are still sitting in your cage being scared to look out. I would not be surprised if you live in an area considered by some as a "no go area" because it is full of people like you, who feel threatened by the otherness of others.
Oh ****, is that the only thing you can do? Try to deflect what I say by engaging in some cheap psychoanalysis. I'm not describing my own internal thoughts. I'm describing norms and external realities all around you. What I say is based on studies and fact, and confirmed by personal experiences. The muslim community doesn't feel threatened by peoples otherness. It's more interested in maintaining itself.
manfred wrote: Finally, let me explain to you what Islam really is, now that you seem to be able to see that it is not a race. It is primarily a political ideology, disguised as a religion. It is a tool devised by Mohammed to appoint himself a leader of men and to help him to control people. It is not a race, and it is not a religion. The closest thing we have like it is Marxism or Fascism. Both have much in common with Islam, including the pseudo-religious component. I will elaborate, if this comparison intrigues you.
No thanks, i don't want your descriptions of Politicized Islam. You're only rehashing what choudary and some retarded wahabi preacher is telling you. If I politicized Judaism i could call it a ethnic-nationalist prejudiced self-perpetuating xenophobic ideology, whose only purpose is to further the cause of jewish people and to secure their interests. You're only interested in Islam, because of violent wahabism. Not because you're interested in analyzing Islam in the context of reality, how it's practiced.
manfred wrote: Yes, of course Islam unites people. Ask yourself why? Who first seriously benefited from this unification effect? Who is now re-discovering this effect? The leaders of places like Iran, Saudi Arabia and more recently, Egypt. Islam has very little to do with God, but a lot with control and power. It is its PURPOSE to unite, it have been invented for that reason, and it is working quite well.
Come up with your nutty conspiracy theories all you want. But don't statement them as if they're fact.
manfred wrote: You have been duped, my friend, and you need to take a good close look at Islam. If you have courage you take my advice. I don't even know you, so I have nothing to gain by telling you this. I wish you well, and I hope you will try and listen.
Sorry. I don't care about you and your BS, you lap dog of the whites. I only care for the welfare of Muslims and middle-easterners. Those who Ali Sina encouraged a nuclear holocaust against. And who your morally superior freedom-loving fairy humanist friends in the UK sent soldiers to our countries, both in the past and today, resulting in thousands of deaths and resource exploitation. Why don't you criticize the loss of life of Muslims from foreign aggression? Is that imaginary on my part too?

Anyway you'll see where you end up when they betray you.

Nosuperstition wrote: Perhaps the Africans in Darfur region in Sudan who are only a tad different in color to their upper caste Arab marauders need to put on skin whitening cream so that the Arabs might in future accept them.
Show me a single race-based organization, previous to the 20th century, in the entire islamic world. Pan-arabism has it's roots in colonialism and european ideologies.
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