And a cultural thing folks- I fear I will not be able to do the right at my dads funeral. A relief but at the time stress as exactly what does the wider family expect me to do.
Raj_Flower wrote:I now think I will never see the Kaaba. I so wanted to smear it with faeces as my art.
.Raj_Flower wrote:How on earth for this earthly bricks became the centre for 5 times a day bowing is a measure of how idiotic many people's brain is.
Raj_Flower wrote:Madina. The grave of the sexually greedy founder.
Back to my wife and kids. Damn if either could get onto PPE like hitchens at Oxford I would shout take a full page advert in the times and declare my apostasy.
That's all I want. Them to be free. Never to look back.
Raj_Flower wrote:Then me. Take me or don't take me. I am me. I won't have to put on this act anymore.
You really are quite taken by this, and you do your best to be as unhelpful as possible. In your own way you are probably driving Raj-flower away from Islam more rapidly than anyone else possibly could, even if that is what they wanted.
First of all, your obsession with skin colour is broadly frowned upon in ANY Western country. You will not find broad acceptance of these notions in the "developed" world. You make all sorts of assumptions about people. For example, you assume I am one of those white people you like to caricature and who you hate so much. I reality my skin colour will be much like yours. To me the colour of a human being's skin is merely a biological adaptation to the environment. You may know that humans are by FAR the LEAST genetically diverse species of all primates. So, we have "races" for humans, a whole host of them even, and we don't talk about races of chimpanzees or other primates, do we? Have you ever wondered why? Afterall they are many times more diverse than us.
Faith freedom means nothing. Your rhetoric is not objective and free of its tendencies. You guys are not trying be truthful. You're not showing him the consequences of his actions. You just have an agenda to convert anyone muslim to atheism/christianity/non-islam religion. This guy is vulnerable, because he's swayed by what he thinks will alleviate his troubles, but will only exchange his troubles for other troubles.manfred wrote:1) Nobody wants to "turn" anybody into anything. That is why we are called faithFREEDOM. Our ideal is for people to study religious teachings and practices, particularly those of Islam, and to evaluate them.We want people to THINK for THEMSELVES. Where ever that leads. We particularly value people like "eagle" who with great patience tries to show us why Islam is true. He is quite wrong, but his contributions are valuable because they help the evaluation process.
manfred wrote:2) I don't subscribe to your tribal attitude to religion, as if Islam defines you as a "race". The issue is only if it is reasonable to believe that Islam may be TRUE. The follow on question must be if Islam can be a force for good in this world. I am convinced that neither is the case. We are first and foremost ALL, including you, just people. We are all the same, and none is better or worse than another because of where they were born, where they live, how much cash they have, or what religion they follow. It is what we make of the situations that we find ourselves in, that causes divisions. We have enough inequality in the world, and we don't need Islam to divide us even more.
manfred wrote:3) To leave or change one's religion is not a "betrayal". It is the exercise of one's conscience. It is unhealthy in the extreme to force yourself to believe things you are not really sure of or to follow practices you don't agree with, purely in order to "belong" to some group or another. This is the most base reason to be part of a religion, unworthy of any human being. It seems, Islam does not even care about that, as long as you shout "allah akhbar" whenever it is demanded of you and are SEEN to do all the things you are meant to do as Muslim. What goes on in people's heads is completely ignored. That is why many Muslims, like you, are full of cognitive dissonance.
Qutuzistan wrote:Even in the most cosmopolitan cities, you see that there is no free intermingling.
enceladus wrote:Qutuzistan wrote:Even in the most cosmopolitan cities, you see that there is no free intermingling.
Absolutely correct, and whose fault is that???
Which CULT brings its people to the West and then proceeds to congregate in cult-only ghettoes where non-cult members are not welcome?
Which cult preaches hatred of non-cult members?
Not Buddhists. Not Hindus, Jews or Taoists. (Sure, there are Hindu (Indian) communities in the West, but non-Hindus are still very welcome).
enceladus wrote:Manfred is spot-on. We are about *critical thinking.* Raj has done some *excellent* critical thinking and seems to have decided (correctly) that Islam is nonsense and lies.
He is not alone in having reached that conclusion. Many many millions have done so before him (and will continue to do so).
Having decided that, it is up to Raj to find his own path (as Ali Sina and tens of millions of others have done), and at least he will be guided on that path by TRUTH - not the lies of Islam.
Your seeming "sympathy" is crocodile-tears, Q. Does Islam not say that apostates should be punished? If you disagree with that, you are going against your own religion.
No-one is saying that the path for Raj will be easy, but we *do* care about apostates.
All that Muslims care about is getting them back into their *cult*.
Qutuzistan wrote:Listen you mentally confused white anglo-saxon. You hate islam as much as it contradicts your own values, as it is foreign.
Qutuzistan wrote:You hate muslims, because they're brown. Why don't you mention black ghettoes or east-asian ghettoes?
Qutuzistan wrote:Why don't you mention the ethnic strife in your own country? Are you afraid that if you do, you'll see the flaw in your own society?
Qutuzistan wrote:Tell me, good white man. What do you have to offer him? Can you answer my question? Why do you deny that your society disenfranchizes and renders non-whites rootless? Why do you deny that the alienation of colored people in your society stems from the social structure of your society? If this guy became atheist, will you welcome him the same way you'd a White anglo-saxon christian? Will your society do that? No. He'll always be a foreigner in your society. So regardless of him being muslim or not. He's a permanent outsider. So him sticking to his community, is better than him dissolving in your "freedom".
enceladus wrote:Listen you mentally confused white anglo-saxon. You hate islam as much as it contradicts your own values, as it is foreign.
Wrong. I hate Islam because it is *violent* and preaches hatred to non-Muslims.
I hate no-one because they are brown. Heck, one of my favourite candidates for the US election in 2012 was Allen West. He is black, and he understands that islam is an evil cult.
( I followed the US elections because they are a big thing - not because I'm there - I'm not. )
Enceladus wrote:These ghettoes do not exist in my country (which is not the US or UK and which I will not name.....
Enceladus wrote:What "ethnic strife" is this? Are you talking about the US?
Anyway - you have not disproved what I said. You are trying to move things off-topic.
Gee.... it is rich indeed for a Muslim to go on about how "bad" our society is......
If our society is so "bad", then why do so many people from poor countries want to come to the West?
If YOUR society is so "good", then why do so many people want to leave Islamic countries?
manfred wrote:A "social race"??
manfred wrote:All you are doing is to repeat the Quranic mantra that you are part of the "best of people" while are that are non-Muslims are the "worst of people".
manfred wrote:And then you are seriously asking how Islam causes division?
It is also saying a lot that you have not asked Raj-flower even once what exactly he finds hard to believe or come to terms with in Islam. Obviously you don't even care about that.
manfred wrote:To you, it's all about belonging to the "tribe". Leaving is "betrayal" or even "treason", punishable by death. The reasons for leaving are irrelevant.
manfred wrote:All you are trying to do is to scare raj-flower into apparent compliance, by painting the darkest spectre of live away from Islam that you can. No discussion, explanation, debate, just a brow-beating with irrational fears.
manfred wrote:You asked me how I have avoided reality? Obviously you know very little of Western countries. Your religion tells you you may not make friends with those outside it, so take refuge in your prefudice. Well, guess what, if you don't want to be part of the country you live in, nobody is making you. It's not perfect, by a long shot, but I find your racial stereotypes quite crazy, and lacking any basis in fact. As I told you before, if you wan to put this "social race" to the test, please get a job in Saudi Arabia and see just how much you are part of the "clan". Then compare that to how welcome you are in Scandinavia.
manfred wrote:Raj-flower will understand that he does NOT get any prize or special consideration for deciding Islam behind. Nobody does. But he will get integrity, and a feeling of being at peace with himself, because he refuses to lie to himself. That is worth something. I would say it's worth more than money, power or recognition.
manfred wrote:As to "deserting his own people", well, it is a really the other way round. He is not pushing his family away, but his family may push HIM away. He is not doing the deserting, he worried that he will BE DESERTED, and that is why he want this discussion. He wants to explore ways by which he can teach his family to accept as who he is, not merely as who they want him to be.
I am sad that you have managed to high-jack this thread with you stuff, in a way, but it also shows exactly the kind of thing he has to deal with.
Ibn Rushd wrote:Well the thread has lost its original intent entirely.
I think what Ali Sina said you should follow, you can wait until your kids are off to uni., that way they will have a better start instead of going to pot now with unknown reactions from others. I often find that Muslim women when informed their husband is a fake believer or murtad that they will not love them anymore, the love was conditional on being Muslim. This is not love of any kind.
If you have questions for me, please pm, because this thread isn't working anymore for your topic.
manfred wrote:So, according to you Islam is a "race". Not only a race, but a race you can JOIN, by saying certain words, and leaving is offensive to you, but not impossible. Do you know how insane that sounds?
manfred wrote:And what is the punishment for leaving?
manfred wrote:I arrived in the UK many years ago, all alone. I made friends easy enough. It is a case of making an effort, and respecting others. It is utter nonsense that somehow life as you know it ceases once you leave Islam. It shows your insecurity that you are envisioning such a bleak future for people who leave Islam. Talk to some who have. Iffo would be a good person to ask. In terms of skin tone, which matters such a lot to you, he would be a good match to you.
manfred wrote:It seems that the only thing that keeps you attached to Islam is aprimitive sense of tribal belonging, and an indoctrinated fear of the world at large.
Qutuzistan wrote:Intelligent lad wrote:To all humans from the sub-continent
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0C08XX8 ... g&index=17
To all humans from Iran
Let's fight together to throw away the yoke of Islam imposed on our forefathers.
Any true Muslim will listen to this, be gone with your heretical uncle-tom Hindu, you white-loving zero-dignity raj white wannabe, go put on more skin whitening cream, so that in the future the white man might accept you :
manfred wrote:I makes me sad to think that you consider yourself as some kind of exotic pet because of your skin colour. To maintain such a warped idea while living in a Western country means you have completely cut yourself off from all around you and have retreated into a little ghetto. Here is a bit of news for you: ONLY you can decide what you want to be. If you want to be a pet, well, be a pet.
You're too blind or too devoted to stupid sh!t to see reality.manfred wrote:I can assure you nobody treats me like a pet, I know how to look after myself,and how to get along with others. The respect I get from others is not based on my skin colour, but on my approach to others, my skills, knowledge and achievements. I don't go round demanding respect because of my skin colour or my religion. I don't have to. I leave that to the local Muslims.
manfred wrote:The general rule is the same here as in my home country: you get treated as you treat others.
manfred wrote:It seems to me, though that you have not quite convinced your self of your own propaganda... why would you want to live in place like that? Why leave your tribal homeland and live in a self-imposed ghetto? And then you want to tell others about some awful fate that awaits them when they dare to do what any man should, and follow their own convictions? All you have done is show the world just how bankrupt Islam really is.
manfred wrote:You don't have to "belong" to this or that "group". You can choose your "group" if you feel you need one. You can make it alone, or you can even start your own group. Whatever the course, there is a full life after Islam and without it, with challenges as well as opportunities.
manfred wrote:You are still sitting in your cage being scared to look out. I would not be surprised if you live in an area considered by some as a "no go area" because it is full of people like you, who feel threatened by the otherness of others.
No thanks, i don't want your descriptions of Politicized Islam. You're only rehashing what choudary and some retarded wahabi preacher is telling you. If I politicized Judaism i could call it a ethnic-nationalist prejudiced self-perpetuating xenophobic ideology, whose only purpose is to further the cause of jewish people and to secure their interests. You're only interested in Islam, because of violent wahabism. Not because you're interested in analyzing Islam in the context of reality, how it's practiced.manfred wrote:Finally, let me explain to you what Islam really is, now that you seem to be able to see that it is not a race. It is primarily a political ideology, disguised as a religion. It is a tool devised by Mohammed to appoint himself a leader of men and to help him to control people. It is not a race, and it is not a religion. The closest thing we have like it is Marxism or Fascism. Both have much in common with Islam, including the pseudo-religious component. I will elaborate, if this comparison intrigues you.
manfred wrote:Yes, of course Islam unites people. Ask yourself why? Who first seriously benefited from this unification effect? Who is now re-discovering this effect? The leaders of places like Iran, Saudi Arabia and more recently, Egypt. Islam has very little to do with God, but a lot with control and power. It is its PURPOSE to unite, it have been invented for that reason, and it is working quite well.
manfred wrote:You have been duped, my friend, and you need to take a good close look at Islam. If you have courage you take my advice. I don't even know you, so I have nothing to gain by telling you this. I wish you well, and I hope you will try and listen.
Nosuperstition wrote:Perhaps the Africans in Darfur region in Sudan who are only a tad different in color to their upper caste Arab marauders need to put on skin whitening cream so that the Arabs might in future accept them.
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