I'm leaving Islam and here's my story

[Rovan]

Just a little update on it, my BF is actually kinda shocked by the can of worm he found out, especially about Muhammad's case being a pedophile. He was asking me if that's true and anything about it. I never guided him that way. He admitted that he found it himself and he just asked a further explanation.

So I show him the hadith, completed with links and sirah and anything I found and it's quite like a big sledgehammer on his head. I often said to him "Drink a water!" to calm himself down. His family and he were not as religious as mine, he said, but he actually tried not to believe. I didn't force him to believe it, but I just told him about the facts. And in the end, he might not be an apostate, and I never encourage him to be so. He might end up moderate, or agnostic, top, but I guess he would never go not believing God like me.

And I won't force him to not believe it anyway.

[Bob]

Hi Rovan,

Thanks for taking the time to answer me - I wish you and your BF every happiness!
About the argument from nature. There's something that bugs me. If animals did not practice homosexuality (which they do) would that invalidate gay or lesbian relations between human beings? Of course not!

Regarding the personality of Mohammed, what I find particularly shocking is his treatment of his critics. This is from the very earliest biography of Mohammed (Ibn Ishaq). What do you make of it?

Asma bint Marwan spoke critically of Muhammad, telling her tribe to be wary of him. Ishaq: 676 “‘You obey a stranger who encourages you to murder for booty. You are greedy men (she is talking about Muslims here of course) . Is there no honor among you?’ Upon hearing those lines Muhammad said, ‘Will no one rid me of this woman?’ Umayr, a zealous Muslim, decided to execute the Prophet’s wishes. That very night he crept into the writer’s home while she lay sleeping surrounded by her young children. There was one at her breast. Umayr removed the suckling babe and then plunged his sword into the poet. The next morning in the mosque, Muhammad, who was aware of the assassination, said, ‘You have helped Allah and His Apostle.’ Umayr said, ‘She had five sons; should I feel guilty?’ ‘No,’ the Prophet answered. ‘Killing her was as meaningless as two goats butting heads.’”

[Sten]

Rovan,

It must be hard to find out such things about your belief system. It shows he is a smart person, that he did not immediately dismiss the information as lies to make Islam look bad.

[Rovan]

Thanks Sten.
To be honest, before I know FF better, I did have thought if you guys just want to make Islam look bad. But looking how you guys reason and with your attitude, I tried to dig deeper. FFI (Faith Freedom Indonesia), although helped a bit, but the attitude is a kind of extreme and almost to the one of hatemonger that I need something which is less fiery and more neutral in reasoning.

Hi Rovan,

Thanks for taking the time to answer me - I wish you and your BF every happiness!
About the argument from nature. There's something that bugs me. If animals did not practice homosexuality (which they do) would that invalidate gay or lesbian relations between human beings? Of course not!

Regarding the personality of Mohammed, what I find particularly shocking is his treatment of his critics. This is from the very earliest biography of Mohammed (Ibn Ishaq). What do you make of it?

Asma bint Marwan spoke critically of Muhammad, telling her tribe to be wary of him. Ishaq: 676 “‘You obey a stranger who encourages you to murder for booty. You are greedy men (she is talking about Muslims here of course) . Is there no honor among you?’ Upon hearing those lines Muhammad said, ‘Will no one rid me of this woman?’ Umayr, a zealous Muslim, decided to execute the Prophet’s wishes. That very night he crept into the writer’s home while she lay sleeping surrounded by her young children. There was one at her breast. Umayr removed the suckling babe and then plunged his sword into the poet. The next morning in the mosque, Muhammad, who was aware of the assassination, said, ‘You have helped Allah and His Apostle.’ Umayr said, ‘She had five sons; should I feel guilty?’ ‘No,’ the Prophet answered. ‘Killing her was as meaningless as two goats butting heads.’”

Thanks a lot, Bob.
About the homosexual-hingy, at least ignorant people can't degrade me "to the level of animal or even lower". It will be a quite blatant proof that it is not unnatural. If Qur'an denies this fact, then Qur'an is the one which is not natural.

And about the hadith, please tell me this is a lie. I really find this hadith ... disturbing, Can you please give me the the sanadh of this? I just want to confirm.

it's like... I'm watching a boss of a mafia who doesn't want to get his own hand spoiled by blood and coldheartedly ask a hitman to "get rid" of a harmless person. Seriously, this actually could explain the attitude of his follower who's... mostly brutal.

[konga]

4. Doesnt Islam ask its follower to implement capitalunishment for rape?

Actually Anthony, the answer to this question is "No". If you really think that the answer is "Yes", can you please provide a verse of the Quran and/or a Hadeeth that mentions rape? According to the Quran, Hadith or Sunna, what is the correct Islamic procedure to be followed when a woman reports a rape? According to the Quran, Hadith or Sunna, how can a rape be proved and what is the capital punishment for a raper?

I wrote a refutation to an article about this very subject in this thread (viewtopic.php?f=69&t=9353), if you are interested, please read it. I would love to discuss this issue with anybody interested.

[konga]

Welcome to FFI, Rovan

And about the hadith, please tell me this is a lie. I really find this hadith ... disturbing, Can you please give me the the sanadh of this? I just want to confirm.

it's like... I'm watching a boss of a mafia who doesn't want to get his own hand spoiled by blood and coldheartedly ask a hitman to "get rid" of a harmless person. Seriously, this actually could explain the attitude of his follower who's... mostly brutal.

I'm sorry to say this, Rovan, but this incident is documented, at least, in Ibn Ishaq's biography of Mohammed, which is considered an authentic and one of the most reliable sources of the life of Mohammed by the main stream Muslims. I'm still reading the Bukhari, but haven't got that far yet. I can inform you if I find it reported there.

I understand that this is very hard to believe/digest. This is actually the story that got me on track and made me "dig into" Islam though it's most authentic sources. To my shock, I found out that it was true.

The thing is Rovan, if you are to dig into the authentic sources of Islam, you will find more and more disturbing immoral acts (not limited to killings and ordering hits) performed by Mohammed. If you were this shocked by this hadith, I suggest you stop digging until you know that you are ready to handle it (otherwise, you might go back to your angry phase again). I was an apostate for over a year before I found all these stuff about Mohammed. During that year, I had no bad feelings about the teachings of Islam or about Mohammed (you can read that in my testimony on this very forum). I believed that Islam, in its core, had good influence on the people who needed something like religion in their lives. I believed that the Muslim terrorist were twisting the Quran and using Islam as a cover in their search for power for the sake of power. Then I heard about this hadith in an interview with an apostate woman called Wafa Sultan and found it hard to believe that I felt that I had to verify this. I went to the most authentic sources (Bukhari, Muslim, Ibn Ishaq... my next shop will be Al-Tabari). I bought them from a mosque where I live in Europe and asked 2 different Immams (in 2 different Arabic Muslim countries) about the authenticity and reliability of these sources and they all confirmed it. What I found was a LOT to take in. One day I was fine, the next day I was in the angry phase. It's been 6 months now and I'm still in that phase. So think about how much you really want to know at a time.

I don't know if you have read Ali Sina's challenge, but if you haven't, and want to know more, read it. Just one at a time and see how you feel. The sources Ali Sina uses are actually authentic.

[Ram]

Well its your decision. One thing don't ever hate innocent muslims who are not hurting anyone and don't join the band wagon of some of these fanatic hate mongers here.

iffo, stop talking nonsense. Nobody in this site hates innocent Muslims. We think that "innocent" Muslims are victims of Islam and "moderate" like yourself. In your view innocent Muslims are those who don't do the actual killings or strap suicide bombs to their waists. But we believe that innocent Muslims stay silent while fanatic Muslims carry out the actual killings - not beacuse they do not believe in eliminating kaffirs.

Ram you don't know what you talking about
First you say "Nobody in this site hates innocent Muslims.'

and then you say "Muslims stay silent while fanatic Muslims carry out the actual killings - not beacuse they do not believe in eliminating kaffirs"

So you basically blamed innocent muslims that they believe in eliminating kaffirs. So why would you not hate muslims if they believe in eliminating kaffirs.

So don't lie we all know people like you are muslims haters........... that's why been called hate mongers.

Have you seen Muslims demonstrating when Muslims do the killings? Did so called innocent Muslims protested when Saddam gassed 5000 Kurdish Muslims in Halabja in 1980's? When Taliban banned the education of girls in Afghanistan, did you see any demonstration? Where were the moderate Muslims when Salman Taseer was murdred? Even the lawyers celebrated his killing. iffo, stop being a moron, at least recognize the facts.

[Rovan]

Just to refresh your mind.

This Ahmadiyyah is actually benign. They are the victims.
Yet the damn Front call themselves they are the victim and they have right to ban and KILL the Ahmadiyyah.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... 2cFcbKdaW4

And the "Silent Majority" didn't do crap about this.

[aceaxe2]

Freedom of religion in democratic country , sweet ...

How muslim woman in Indonesia ? Did many of them doing sex before married ? Because iffo said Muslim woman have high moral value in sex .

[Rovan]

Freedom of religion in democratic country , sweet ...

How muslim woman in Indonesia ? Did many of them doing sex before married ? Because iffo said Muslim woman have high moral value in sex .

My Sis is pretty much pious, and I guess she holds herself.

My cousin has a girlfriend who wears jilbab/hijab but sometimes he bangs her. They're lovers for 10 year and then married. Have a couple of kids, relatively... normal. (not much differnet from pious sis)

His little brother, married a someone who wears hijab, but i just realized after 5 months they have had a baby.

And some random views in the midnight in some spots in public space that some couple having their huggy-huggy time, and one of them wears hijab.

It's a kind of 50-50, as I don't like to take a peek to other people's sex life. They're pretty much moderate, may be because it's in Indonesia, not Middle East.

I wouldn't guarantee about high moral value in sex. In my city or any other big city in Indonesia, they're pretty open to anything.

[Bob]

Thanks Sten.
To be honest, before I know FF better, I did have thought if you guys just want to make Islam look bad. But looking how you guys reason and with your attitude, I tried to dig deeper. FFI (Faith Freedom Indonesia), although helped a bit, but the attitude is a kind of extreme and almost to the one of hatemonger that I need something which is less fiery and more neutral in reasoning.

Hi Rovan,

Thanks for taking the time to answer me - I wish you and your BF every happiness!
About the argument from nature. There's something that bugs me. If animals did not practice homosexuality (which they do) would that invalidate gay or lesbian relations between human beings? Of course not!

Regarding the personality of Mohammed, what I find particularly shocking is his treatment of his critics. This is from the very earliest biography of Mohammed (Ibn Ishaq). What do you make of it?

Asma bint Marwan spoke critically of Muhammad, telling her tribe to be wary of him. Ishaq: 676 “‘You obey a stranger who encourages you to murder for booty. You are greedy men (she is talking about Muslims here of course) . Is there no honor among you?’ Upon hearing those lines Muhammad said, ‘Will no one rid me of this woman?’ Umayr, a zealous Muslim, decided to execute the Prophet’s wishes. That very night he crept into the writer’s home while she lay sleeping surrounded by her young children. There was one at her breast. Umayr removed the suckling babe and then plunged his sword into the poet. The next morning in the mosque, Muhammad, who was aware of the assassination, said, ‘You have helped Allah and His Apostle.’ Umayr said, ‘She had five sons; should I feel guilty?’ ‘No,’ the Prophet answered. ‘Killing her was as meaningless as two goats butting heads.’”

Thanks a lot, Bob.
About the homosexual-hingy, at least ignorant people can't degrade me "to the level of animal or even lower". It will be a quite blatant proof that it is not unnatural. If Qur'an denies this fact, then Qur'an is the one which is not natural.

And about the hadith, please tell me this is a lie. I really find this hadith ... disturbing, Can you please give me the the sanadh of this? I just want to confirm.

it's like... I'm watching a boss of a mafia who doesn't want to get his own hand spoiled by blood and coldheartedly ask a hitman to "get rid" of a harmless person. Seriously, this actually could explain the attitude of his follower who's... mostly brutal.

Hello Rovan,

The story of Asma bint Marwan comes from Ibn IShaq's Sirat al Rasul - the very first biography of Mohammed. It can be consulted on A Guillaume "A Life Of Mohammed", p 670.

[aceaxe2]

Because I see Muslim woman more afraid in human punishment than god punishment .
Hope your parent will open their heart for you and your boyfriend