Testimony of a Godless Somali Secular Humanist.

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serrated_colon
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Testimony of a Godless Somali Secular Humanist.

Post by serrated_colon »

I'm 17. I was born in Britain and I'm of Somali descent. I am also one of the few living counterexamples to the much-professed claim that those of Somali descent are all Sunni muslims, and anyone who isn't is actually an Ethiopian claiming to be Somali. To add insult to the injury to that claim, I'm also an Agnostic Atheist, so the fundamental pillar of Islam has been completely rejected. As one would expect, Somalis generally believe that all apostates must be killed and those who are apostates are rejected by their family and the rest of their tribe. I don't know of anybody stupid enough to be an open apostate in Somalia(or even Somaliland for that matter) as any pressure put on the Somali government to spare them is totally ignored(we're not exactly big on foreign policy).

I'm not going to bang on about my life in secondary school as it's a bit childish and quite frankly I don't think it's interesting enough to actually bother writing about. What I will do, however is write about my attitudes to Islam and how they've changed throughout my life.

I guess a good place to start is my family. My parents divorced when I was very young, and I have lived with my mother for the rest of my life with occasional visits to my father. My mother's side of the family are very intelligent, progressive and relatively liberal muslims. They value education and aren't mysogynistic bastards(most of my closest family from my mother's side are women, so that sorta explains it). Some don't even wear the hijab, nor do they really give a sh!t about it. My father's side however, are very conservative people with literalistic interpretations of the Qur'an. I don't know them very well, but the reason why I think this will be quite evident later on in this story.

I first became properly interested in Islam when my parents sent me to an Islamic school when I was around 8 or 9. I regularly would ask questions about Islam, the meaning of the Qur'an and the stories of the prophet Muhammad. However, I started to hate the school as I believed that they showed more attention to those who were asian, than people of other races. There were times when questions were asked and I was the only one with my hand up, and they wouldn't pick me to answer the question. Considering I was 9 years old, it's not hard to see why I interpreted this as racism. The last straw for me was the difficulty of the work set, as homework assignments given to me were not challenging in the slightest, which led me to request my removal from the school to my parents. They happily complied(thank the non-existant God).

I guess I could consider myself slightly above average in intelligence at the time. Fast-forward to when I was 12 years old: My interest in Islam became stronger, as I began to study the meaning of the Qur'an and the Hadith in great detail and widening my knowledge of Islam beyond that of the average child. Of course, I had a literalistic interpretation of the Qur'an, but I generally was against terrorism as that entailed suicide which I saw as a lack of Sabr(patience) for death. I had unwittingly taken on the Salafi approach to understanding Islam, as I rejected blindly following the Madhab(schools of thought) that many Sunni muslims followed. I was, however justified in this as many quotes by Imams such as Shaafi'i have been recorded saying 'if you find anything wrong with what i'm saying and your evidence contradicts me, follow your evidence(Qur'an/Hadith)' or something to that effect. When my knowledge became great enough, I started to go onto internet chatrooms with VOIP(so I could use my microphone) and I debated with fellow muslims and those who weren't. I became somewhat famous in the rooms I went into as I at times gave Da'wah(basically preached) for hours and hours to those who were three times my age.

Some of my views consisted of things like listening to music and watching movies/tv being haram, women being permissibly forced to wear hijab and beaten until they do, it being permisslbe to beat your wife and extremist baloney like it being permissible to kill every single jew that resides in Israel or condoning those who bomb buses/trains without actually killing themselves. My father once recorded me talking about killing all the jews in Israel(which I really need to most excellent destroy). I sort of hate my father for not moving me away from these extremist views, but instead encouraging me to hold onto them by referring to me affectionately as 'sheikh'.

This continued for about 3 years, as my school life generally consisted of preaching Islam to those who weren't muslim, demanding prayer facilities in my school(which was predominantly asian) and condemning female muslims for not wearing hijab. I began to lose my devotion to the religion when I was about 15, as I started listening to music, watching films and TV and not praying as much as I used to(which was 5 times a day with the sunnah/nawaafil/witr). I still participated in Islamic debates whenever I came across them, and generally won them as my knowledge of Islam was superior to most of my peers at the time.

About 1 and a half years ago, when I was 16 I had a realisation. Unfortunately it wasn't a divine one, as it was that all my belief in Islam was based upon one assumption: that God exists. I guess you could call this anti-divine, but this was a distressing fact. I needed to prove this assumption. This led me to philosophy, so I began to study the works of those such as Kant, Plato and Sartre. I began to examine arguments against God such as the problem of evil and the omnipotence paradox and built refutations to them. I then looked to those for God, and examined their validity and only really found solace with the cosmological argument. Of course, I wasn't aware of some of the glaring errors with this argument, but I never cared - what I did realise however, that religion wasn't a definitive fact. I could only(very badly) justify God's existence, but not any specific religion's validity. I looked to pascal's wager to solve this, again not looking at its glaring errors. So I picked 6 religions and rolled a six-sided die. Guess what religion I got? That's right, AL-ISLAAM! (all of this is reflected in the first entry of my blog btw, which I will post a link to at the end)

Six months later, after studying more philosophy and getting into discussions with a very good friend of mine, I then realise that the knowledge pertaining to God's existence is uncertain. You cannot know whether God exists or not, and anyone who claims to is intellectually dishonest. You can probabilify God's non-existence, similar to the fact you can probabilify the non-existence of an infinitessimally small immeasurable teapot orbiting Saturn's rings(or Jupiter if you prefer) - but you cannot be absolutely 100% certain. So I decided to not believe in God's existence as a result of my following Agnosticism, thus I became an Agnostic Atheist. (again this is reflected in my blog, and I give a more detailed refutation of my previous position)

So that leaves me as a disgusting Murtad, hiding within the midst of a muslim family, lying to them constantly about my faith in Allaah and feeling slightly guilty about it. Though I realise that I am still financially dependant on them, and I cannot risk my university education on the chance of being kicked out of my house...

So yeah, that's me. A slightly socially-reclusive individual(this sorta stuck as when I was all MILITANT ISLAMIST I disassociated myself with my peers) who still hasn't got laid.

http://solillaquist.wordpress.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; for more detail on my philosophical transition from Islam to Agnostic Atheism.
Eopithecus
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Re: Testimony of a Godless Somali Secular Humanist.

Post by Eopithecus »

I don't believe it. Not one example of Muhammad's behavior. Instead the excuse you give is studying Philosophy, I just simply don't buy it. I would make the call "Fake Testimony".
serrated_colon
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Re: Testimony of a Godless Somali Secular Humanist.

Post by serrated_colon »

So you don't think that finding God's existence to be inconclusive a good enough reason to leave Islam? Really?

I'm not sure why you think that me studying the philosophical concept of God to try to prove Islam true(which was my original intention, as I could not take the Shahaada without doing so) and then finding that my logical reasoning found the Islamic(and thereby the Abrahamic) definition of God's existence to be inherently paradoxical and the arguments for this to be fallacious, and as a result of which me leaving Islam so hard to believe! When I was a muslim I gave excuses for Muhammad's actions so they never concerned me. Of course, I now view Muhammad in a different light as a violent mysogynistic paedophile but I'd be a liar if I said it was the reason I left Islam.

But whatever, believe what you want....
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ygalg
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Re: Testimony of a Godless Somali Secular Humanist.

Post by ygalg »

serrated_colon wrote:So you don't think that finding God's existence to be inconclusive a good enough reason to leave Islam? Really?

I'm not sure why you think that me studying the philosophical concept of God to try to prove Islam true(which was my original intention, as I could not take the Shahaada without doing so) and then finding that my logical reasoning found the Islamic(and thereby the Abrahamic) definition of God's existence to be inherently paradoxical and the arguments for this to be fallacious, and as a result of which me leaving Islam so hard to believe! When I was a muslim I gave excuses for Muhammad's actions so they never concerned me. Of course, I now view Muhammad in a different light as a violent mysogynistic paedophile but I'd be a liar if I said it was the reason I left Islam.

But whatever, believe what you want....
questioning god's existence is valid reason.
“a true believer as a person so fanatically committed to a cause that no amount of reality can make him abandon it” Eric Hoffer
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ygalg
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Re: Testimony of a Godless Somali Secular Humanist.

Post by ygalg »

btw welocme to the forum.
“a true believer as a person so fanatically committed to a cause that no amount of reality can make him abandon it” Eric Hoffer
serrated_colon
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Re: Testimony of a Godless Somali Secular Humanist.

Post by serrated_colon »

Thanks for the welcome ygalg. Though I find the notion that I must have first questioned Muhammad instead of God to have a 'real testimony'. Different people have different reasons for leaving Islam. My study of philosophy and to an extent logical reasoning allowed me to present an argument for God, which I believed to be true a while ago, but then found to be untrue and thus I became an Agnostic Atheist. I'm not sure why this is so hard for Eopithecus to understand...
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Chiclets
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Re: Testimony of a Godless Somali Secular Humanist.

Post by Chiclets »

serrated_colon wrote:Thanks for the welcome ygalg. Though I find the notion that I must have first questioned Muhammad instead of God to have a 'real testimony'. Different people have different reasons for leaving Islam. My study of philosophy and to an extent logical reasoning allowed me to present an argument for God, which I believed to be true a while ago, but then found to be untrue and thus I became an Agnostic Atheist. I'm not sure why this is so hard for Eopithecus to understand...
Because Eop is theist.

Anyways welcome aboard.
gupsfu wrote:When someone uses the "taken out of context" argument without explaining what it's really supposed to mean, you know he's lying.
Muslims are so secure in their faith that they need to kill those who don’t share it.
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ygalg
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Re: Testimony of a Godless Somali Secular Humanist.

Post by ygalg »

basically this site is concentrate on Muhammad and not god.
in result we forget there are other elements involved.
“a true believer as a person so fanatically committed to a cause that no amount of reality can make him abandon it” Eric Hoffer
Eopithecus
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Re: Testimony of a Godless Somali Secular Humanist.

Post by Eopithecus »

I am an atheist. A member of this site in one incarnation or other since 2004. I am sorry you don't like my opinion. It is my belief a Muslim must first discard Muhammad not abandon Allah first. Islamic ideology is deeply and emotionally ingrained within Muslims, to believe that he abandoned his faith because of an arcane study of Western Philosophy at 17 is incredulous. He makes the point of making one believe he knew Islam even better than adults yet he doesn't leave Islam because it enslaves children, encourages beating wives, practicing intolerant Jihad, in fact he agrees with the message. No! we are supposed to believe he was influenced by complex theological debates over God's existence by the likes of Plato. Give me a break!! this is a Fake Testimony. He knows he is a superior Muslim playing cheap tricks on infidels.
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enceladus
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Re: Testimony of a Godless Somali Secular Humanist.

Post by enceladus »

ygalg wrote: Questioning god's existence is valid reason.
I agree.

I'm sure there is "more than one road" out of Islam. I'd say there are at least a couple - examining Mohammad's nasty deeds, or examining whether or not Allah exists.

Sure, I agree that examining Mohammad's nasty deeds is *also* a good way to exit Islam, but I would not say that it is the **only** way.

Indeed, I would say that questioning God's existence is one of the fastest ways out of Islam. If you come to the conclusion that God does not exist, then the whole "house of cards" collapses.

Welcome, s.c!
- enceladus
serrated_colon
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Re: Testimony of a Godless Somali Secular Humanist.

Post by serrated_colon »

Eopithecus wrote:I am an atheist. A member of this site in one incarnation or other since 2004. I am sorry you don't like my opinion. It is my belief a Muslim must first discard Muhammad not abandon Allah first. Islamic ideology is deeply and emotionally ingrained within Muslims, to believe that he abandoned his faith because of an arcane study of Western Philosophy at 17 is incredulous. He makes the point of making one believe he knew Islam even better than adults yet he doesn't leave Islam because it enslaves children, encourages beating wives, practicing intolerant Jihad, in fact he agrees with the message. No! we are supposed to believe he was influenced by complex theological debates over God's existence by the likes of Plato. Give me a break!! this is a Fake Testimony. He knows he is a superior Muslim playing cheap tricks on infidels.
I don't think you've made any attempt to understand what I've posted nor read my blog(which gives a nice review of my opinions as a theist, and then an atheist) but whatever. If you honestly cannot comprehend that doubting God's existence(which is merely a part of Western Philosophy, Epistemology is far more important and interesting) is too complex a route out of Islam, then I pity you. I'll explain myself a bit further and then I'm done justifying myself:

I thought that to first justify Islam, I must justify religion first(specifically abrahamic religion).If I could prove that God existed, I could then use my knowledge of Islam to prove that it was the one and only true religion. The moral and ethical problems of Islam did not occur to me as I had the typical muslim justifications for them(which, if you must know - I re-examined my morality after leaving Islam, of which then I realised my moral values conflicted with Islam's). By the way, if I studied only the Socratic philosophers(as you stated the 'likes' of Plato) I wouldn't be an atheist as the cosmological argument(which back then was described God as a "Formal Cause") doesn't follow(with regards to modern physics) anymore.

Of course I don't like your opinion, it makes an assumption about me as a person when you don't even know me and is a statement that discredits my honesty. I don't, however, deny your right to that opinion.
enceladus wrote:
ygalg wrote: Questioning god's existence is valid reason.
I agree.

I'm sure there is "more than one road" out of Islam. I'd say there are at least a couple - examining Mohammad's nasty deeds, or examining whether or not Allah exists.

Sure, I agree that examining Mohammad's nasty deeds is *also* a good way to exit Islam, but I would not say that it is the **only** way.

Indeed, I would say that questioning God's existence is one of the fastest ways out of Islam. If you come to the conclusion that God does not exist, then the whole "house of cards" collapses.

Welcome, s.c!
- enceladus
I completely agree, if you cannot accept the Shahaada, you cannot accept Islam. This was a reason why I wanted to examine God's existence first.

Thanks for the welcome, by the way.
Eopithecus
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Re: Testimony of a Godless Somali Secular Humanist.

Post by Eopithecus »

Yes I read your blog, as painful as it was for me. If I had a 17 year old child so satisfied with himself as you seem to be, I would be forced to re-examine my beliefs about honor-killing. BTW most people examine their morality before leaving their religion not afterwards. This sounds like you settled this issue and then came the problem. Well good luck with whatever, or whomever you might be.
serrated_colon
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Re: Testimony of a Godless Somali Secular Humanist.

Post by serrated_colon »

Eopithecus wrote:Yes I read your blog, as painful as it was for me. If I had a 17 year old child so satisfied with himself as you seem to be, I would be forced to re-examine my beliefs about honor-killing. BTW most people examine their morality before leaving their religion not afterwards. This sounds like you settled this issue and then came the problem. Well good luck with whatever, or whomever you might be.
I'm not sure what makes you think I'm "self-satisfied", but whatever. You're really pedantic about the order in which we re-examine our beliefs, regardless of whether the same conclusions are yielded...
Eopithecus
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Re: Testimony of a Godless Somali Secular Humanist.

Post by Eopithecus »

I am hardly being pedantic. I am just telling you that Muslims do not read dead infidel pagan philosophers to determine whether or not their religion is incorrect. It makes about as much sense as going to Jinns for religious instruction. You are just playing an academic game with forum members here. You aren't the first, nor will you be the last. Perhaps you should take up a hobby like Chess, Shogi or Go.
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ygalg
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Re: Testimony of a Godless Somali Secular Humanist.

Post by ygalg »

wafa sultan's apostasy resulted due her opposition to 'religious coercion'. her introduction to Muhammad's dark side came after. it is possible that leaving Islam could happen from different reasons aside Muhammad.
“a true believer as a person so fanatically committed to a cause that no amount of reality can make him abandon it” Eric Hoffer
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ygalg
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Re: Testimony of a Godless Somali Secular Humanist.

Post by ygalg »

serrated_colon reading your testimony you seems were very verse on Muhammad's life and deeds.
did not bother you then that about 50 years old man having sexual relation with 9 year old kid?
“a true believer as a person so fanatically committed to a cause that no amount of reality can make him abandon it” Eric Hoffer
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Re: Testimony of a Godless Somali Secular Humanist.

Post by serrated_colon »

ygalg wrote:serrated_colon reading your testimony you seems were very verse on Muhammad's life and deeds.
did not bother you then that about 50 years old man having sexual relation with 9 year old kid?
No, I brushed it off as lies and 'media propaganda'. It's how most muslims still view it, as well as some of the more sickening excuses they gave like "he married her for her imaan rather than her age" which is obviously baloney.
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ygalg
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Re: Testimony of a Godless Somali Secular Humanist.

Post by ygalg »

serrated_colon wrote:
ygalg wrote:serrated_colon reading your testimony you seems were very verse on Muhammad's life and deeds.
did not bother you then that about 50 years old man having sexual relation with 9 year old kid?
No, I brushed it off as lies and 'media propaganda'. It's how most muslims still view it, as well as some of the more sickening excuses they gave like "he married her for her imaan rather than her age" which is obviously baloney.
I know what you mean. we had muslims here. despite been introduced with that detail and some were
good natured btw. did not left Islam out of fear. spiritual aspect in Islam does plays a great deal in this.
questioning god existence, is crucial. basically in any religion.
“a true believer as a person so fanatically committed to a cause that no amount of reality can make him abandon it” Eric Hoffer
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Muhammad bin Lyin
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Re: Testimony of a Godless Somali Secular Humanist.

Post by Muhammad bin Lyin »

Eopithecus wrote:I don't believe it. Not one example of Muhammad's behavior. Instead the excuse you give is studying Philosophy, I just simply don't buy it. I would make the call "Fake Testimony".
Actually, Islam is completely philosophically bankrupt. That's what sticks out more to me than Muhammad's pedophilia, because unfortunately, this behavior was acceptable to Muhammad's peers, and although I harshly disagree with pedophilia, it is still a relative value judgment. It's the scientific errors and the general philosophical and spiritual bankruptcy of the Quran that convinced me it's all nonsense. In fact, the scientific errors make it impossible for that book to be written by the creator of all things.
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Muhammad bin Lyin
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Re: Testimony of a Godless Somali Secular Humanist.

Post by Muhammad bin Lyin »

serrated_colon wrote:
ygalg wrote:serrated_colon reading your testimony you seems were very verse on Muhammad's life and deeds.
did not bother you then that about 50 years old man having sexual relation with 9 year old kid?
No, I brushed it off as lies and 'media propaganda'. It's how most muslims still view it, as well as some of the more sickening excuses they gave like "he married her for her imaan rather than her age" which is obviously baloney.
Yes, this always amazes me. The Muslim ability to lie to themselves is simply uncanny and represents a mild to moderate mental disorder that stems from desperation. They make it sound like none of this is in their hadiths and that people are simply making this up as propaganda. And then, on the other hand, they acknowledge people are not making it up and it's in the hadiths, but then make up all sorts of excuses for it. So which is it?? Is it all made up by the media or is it actually in their scriptures? You get a different answer every time because they are all simply lying, and they don't care if they have to lie. Apparently, Allah likes liars, as long as they lie for Islam. I suppose they also think that the western media pays Muslims to yell Allahu Akbar before they kill. These people are dangerously deluded. So honestly, how did you believe them about this when you knew it wasn't made up and is indeed all over the hadiths?? I'd be fascinated to understand how this is possible, so perhaps you can explain.
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