I'm back and I'm an apostate. CHYEAH.

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sidsid
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Re: I'm back and I'm an apostate. CHYEAH.

Post by sidsid »

Ram wrote:
sidsid wrote:Sigh, it's complicated.
I am impressed that you are able to articulate your thaughts so clearly at such young age.
Thanks, Lol. Was that sarcasm?
Nobody knows what happens in afterlife. I have never heard from anyone after they have left this life. I am sure nobody has. So why worry?
I don't worry about any afterlife. I worry about this life because of my disbelief in the after. My point was simply to say that I care about my parents more because I don't believe I will see them again. Is it wrong to appreciate something more fully because of this?
Your parents like many people from many countries came to Canada to make a better life for themselves. I am sure thay came here for your sake and as well for their own sake. I am not saying that you should not appreciate waht your parents did for you but also remember that they came here to get away from life in Pakistan
Of course. I'm not denying that my father didn't come here for a better oppertunity for himself either. I never mentioned their motives, simply the results of them being fruitful for me--therefore that is irrelevant. Whatever their motivations have been, I am grateful. They've wanted to go back several times because my Dad could not work as an Engineer here like he could back in Pakistan. He had to go back to school and get another degree and at his age it wasn't that easy. My mom would go back to Pakistan tomorrow. My Dad is tired of life here as well. They miss their family.

Young people really don’t know about their religion. This is true for Muslims and non-Muslims alike. The best way to make them understand is to ask them questions. This will get them thinking - non threatening simple comments and questions.
I did this just yesterday in fact. My friend, when she said she lived her life by the Quran and lived everyday as if it was the last, was shocked when I said, "Well then why do you hug guys? Doesn't your religion tell you can't even be alone with a boy? For that matter, why do you go about talking about getting a boyfriend?" She tried to justify it and more and more questions came up. I try to be non-threatening but my candidness often gets in the way (darn it!). I'm working on that though.

In the end it came to arguments that she had no idea of. The poor girl is lying to herself. I tried to be neutral but I felt a little surprised. I guess I take it for granted that others might have the same zest for knowledge about the world around them as I do.

I know exactly how you feel. I was born in Pakistan but we were forced to move to India in 1947. My family can trace their roots on my father’s as well my mother’s side family for hundreds of years. We were among the original inhabitants of Sindh before the arrival of Muhammad bin Qasim in the eighth century – the first Muslim terrorist commander to invade India. After defeating the Hindu King Dahir he beheaded every Brahmin priest. He had them lined up in rows and had his men behead them one by one.
Wow. Are you Hindu?


I agree. But that’s the beauty of Islam. You have free will so long as you do not exercise it. Quran repeats hundreds of times that Allah is kind and compassionate but he commands Muslims to torture and kill kaffirs if they do not submit – i.e. convert to Islam. Islamic scriptures are full of oxymoron.
Actually, Yahweh, Jesus, and Allah are all a little funny. All that omnipotence, omniscience stuff when applied to how they seem to be running the universe is questionable.
Wootah
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Re: I'm back and I'm an apostate. CHYEAH.

Post by Wootah »

sidsid that story was beautiful and sad. Be safe. I know they are your family and that they love you but I mean this most compassionately - radicalisation takes moments. There is no such thing as a moderate Muslim only apostates that can't show it. Move out, support yourself, working 12 hours a day is freedom and if you do tell your family do it somewhere safe at a cafe and have someone with you.
Ram
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Re: I'm back and I'm an apostate. CHYEAH.

Post by Ram »

sidsid wrote:Thanks, Lol. Was that sarcasm?
Not at all. I meant it very sincerely.
I don't worry about any afterlife. I worry about this life because of my disbelief in the after. My point was simply to say that I care about my parents more because I don't believe I will see them again. Is it wrong to appreciate something more fully because of this?
I meant that you should care about your parents regardless of if there is afterlife or not.
Of course. I'm not denying that my father didn't come here for a better oppertunity for himself either. I never mentioned their motives, simply the results of them being fruitful for me--therefore that is irrelevant. Whatever their motivations have been, I am grateful. They've wanted to go back several times because my Dad could not work as an Engineer here like he could back in Pakistan. He had to go back to school and get another degree and at his age it wasn't that easy. My mom would go back to Pakistan tomorrow. My Dad is tired of life here as well. They miss their family.
I see your point. I don't know how long your parents have been in the West. But it will not be easy for them to adopt to life in Pakistan because they have tasted the freedom in Canada and USA (I presume that you are living in Canada or the USA). Even those Muslims who hate the USA and Canada will not like the life in Pakistan. Shia and Ahmediya Muslims have much more freedom to practice their religion in North American than in Pakistan. Actually, Ahmediyas (also called Qaidanis) are legally non-Muslims in Pakistan, Bangladesh. Indonesia and many other Muslim countries but they are recognized as Muslims in India - irony of ironies. Here, your parents do not have to worry about what they say or how they practice their religion, but in Pakistan, they don't have that kind of freedom.
I did this just yesterday in fact. My friend, when she said she lived her life by the Quran and lived everyday as if it was the last, was shocked when I said, "Well then why do you hug guys? Doesn't your religion tell you can't even be alone with a boy? For that matter, why do you go about talking about getting a boyfriend?" She tried to justify it and more and more questions came up. I try to be non-threatening but my candidness often gets in the way (darn it!). I'm working on that though.
You are on the right track. You can be candid and non-threatening at the same time, all you have to do is to keep your voice low and calm. Also, there is no need to ask all questions at the same time or in only one encounter. You have to keep them interested in what you have to say. Ask them few questions then let it go and pick up the next time and so on. At least you know that you have some work to do with your approach. That's great.
In the end it came to arguments that she had no idea of. The poor girl is lying to herself. I tried to be neutral but I felt a little surprised. I guess I take it for granted that others might have the same zest for knowledge about the world around them as I do.
She is probably not lying to herself but she is ignorant, not her fault. She knows only what she was taught. She was taught sanitized "Islam". But if you talk to her as a friend, she will learn the truth. I understand that it may not be easy for you but you have to train yourself. I am sure you can.
Wow. Are you Hindu?

Yes I am. I am a Sindhi Hindu. My mother tongue is Sindhi - the mother tongue of Benazir Bhutto and her family. Even the current president of Pakistan, Asif Ali Zardari is a Sindhi. The great grandfather of Benazir Bhutto (Zulfikar Ali Bhutto's grandfather) was a Rajput Hindu from Rajasthan. Ancestors of Muhammad Ali Jinnah were Hindus. There is 95% probability that your ancestors were Hindus on both sides of your family. 95% of Pakistani and Indian Muslims and almost 100% of Bangladeshis are descendants of Hindus. Even the national poet of Pakistan, Iqbal was a grandson of Kashmiri Hindu.
Actually, Yahweh, Jesus, and Allah are all a little funny. All that omnipotence, omniscience stuff when applied to how they seem to be running the universe is questionable.
Yes. Any religion is set of beliefs. Beliefs are very different from facts. Jews, Christians and Muslims believe that the world was created in 6 days - the orthodox adherents of all three religions believe that it's a fact but in reality it's not a fact. Christians believe that Jesus Christ is the only Son of God - a blasphemy in Islam and Muslims believe that Muhammad is the final Prophet which is a blasphemy in Christianity. Jews say that the Prophet (or Messiah, as they call Him) has not arrived yet.

I have no problem with what Jews, Christians and Muslims believe but I have a problem when they say that I am going to hell because I am an infidel, as Christians call me or I am a kaffir, as Muslims call me. At least Jews leave me alone. Calling people infidel or kaffirs is abusive for everyone, Christians, Muslims and so called unbelievers. It creates hatred in people on all sides of the divide.

Thankfully, Christians are tolerant and accepting of non-Christians. But Muslims are still stuck in the 7th Century mindset. We both are able to live in Christian majority country and are free to practice our religions, even preach, build our places of worship. Nobody asks me in Canada what my religion is except when I meet a Pakistani.
वासुदैव कुटुम्बकम्।
سارا سنسار ایک پریوار ہے۔
The Whole World is a Family.
yeezevee
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Re: I'm back and I'm an apostate. CHYEAH.

Post by yeezevee »

Ram says
Yes I am. I am a Sindhi Hindu. My mother tongue is Sindhi - the mother tongue of Benazir Bhutto and her family. Even the current president of Pakistan, Asif Ali Zardari is a Sindhi. The great grandfather of Benazir Bhutto (Zulfikar Ali Bhutto's grandfather) was a Rajput Hindu from Rajasthan. Ancestors of Muhammad Ali Jinnah were Hindus. There is 95% probability that your ancestors were Hindus on both sides of your family. 95% of Pakistani and Indian Muslims and almost 100% of Bangladeshis are descendants of Hindus. Even the national poet of Pakistan, Iqbal was a grandson of Kashmiri Hindu.
It is true many SIndh Muslims have origins in Sindh Hindus but I don't think Zulfikar Ali Bhutto's grandfather was directly a Hindu dear Mr. Ram., But it is true that whole Bhutto clan comes from that Bhatti or Bhati Hindu Rajput sect and are indeed linked to those of India's present Rajasthan. But Zulfikar Ali Bhutto's Mother was a Hindu and her name was Lakhi Bai., Apparently she was Hindu beauty who converted to Islam and became Khursheed Begum before marriage to Sir Shah Nawaz Bhutto., father of Zulfikar Ali Bhutto

Any ways I have two small booklets on Zulfikar Ali Bhutto where the authors talk about Zulfikar Ali Bhutto I am not sure whether you have read the book on Zulfikar Ali Bhutto by his close friend Chakar Ali Khan Junejo (5 December, 1928 - 31 October, 1997)., I have a PDF file of it if you would like to read it. A link on Bhutto http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics ... Ali_Bhutto" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

with best
yeezevee
Ram
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Re: I'm back and I'm an apostate. CHYEAH.

Post by Ram »

Thanks yeezevee, you may very well be right. I will read the article. Thanks again.
वासुदैव कुटुम्बकम्।
سارا سنسار ایک پریوار ہے۔
The Whole World is a Family.
sidsid
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Re: I'm back and I'm an apostate. CHYEAH.

Post by sidsid »

Thanks everyone. I've been doing some more thinking lately...as I always am.
And I'm finding it tough to accept that I will never tell my parents about my disbelief in God. I just don't want to do it. I feel constrained and confined entirely and I know that while I could continue to live without telling my parents about this, the fact is that i don't want to be in the shadows and in the closet as an Atheist.

I think this is a big issue and there are probably many in-the-closet ex-muslims who cannot come out for fear of being hurt or shunned from society and or family. The internet has provided a medium for us to use. And I want to take action. I am realistic in that I know I cannot eradicate Islam or religion in general for that matter. Not everyone can live without belief in God, at least not in the way society is right now. I want to help in promoting more liberal Islam, in encouraging free-thinking and secularism and I could do all this while wearing the label of a Muslim I suppose but I don't want to, even if for the rest of the world, I do it, I won't hide it from my family! Besides, if i'm to speak out, I don't want to encourage things I'd never have take root in a person's mind.

Religion is one of them.
Brendalee
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Re: I'm back and I'm an apostate. CHYEAH.

Post by Brendalee »

Sid-sid, I hope you will not do anything rash. Remember how your mum is so keen to go back. You may love her, but she loves you too and so could be capable of doing something she thinks is "for your own good". If she learns you are an apostate, this would possibly make a trip to Pakistan all the more urgent...even if she strongly suspects. Both sides of the family would probably be only too happy to "help out" in some way which is not at all voluntary on your part.

Here in Britain, the largest proportion of our Muslim community is from Pakistan. We have a serious and on-going problem here with Muslim girls vanishing from their schools - taken "on holiday" to Pakistan only to be kept there to be "sorted out" (Islamically) or forced into marriages. A small number of them miraculously manage to escape back to Britain and we hear again and again how shocked they were that it happened, and how they never thought their families would do such a thing to them.

You are sixteen (or is it suddenly seventeen - FFI seems to think it is your Birthday...So happy Birthday!) and sixteen/seventeen year olds are not exactly famous for their patience; although they ARE well known for their idealism and sense of immunity, which sometimes leads them into trouble.

The time to excercise your "freedom of (from) religion" is when you are fully grown and independent. Excercising it prematurely could invite your parents to excercise THEIR right to do what they think, even mistakenly, is good for you.
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enceladus
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Re: I'm back and I'm an apostate. CHYEAH.

Post by enceladus »

Brendalee wrote:
(snip)
The time to exercise your "freedom of (from) religion" is when you are fully grown and independent. Exercising it prematurely could invite your parents to exercise THEIR right to do what they think, even mistakenly, is good for you.


I agree, Brendalee.
- enceladus
Baal
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Re: I'm back and I'm an apostate. CHYEAH.

Post by Baal »

Welcome Sidsid and congratulations.

Couple things to make it easier to live with people around you: The ultimate Truth for humanity is that we always need to increase our numbers. If we walk alone in the street a pack of dogs can kills us. But when we have numbers on our side, then our survival improves. And when our numbers become too big, we create smaller numbers within the numbers.

Another thing is, never assign a weight to a subject, heavier than the weight of evidence it presents you. Don't be One of those people that always ask for proofs and evidences. You will be boring and people will not stand talking with you. But then, if it matters to you, or if there is a dilemma, then by all means, depend on evidence and proof and all that good stuff.

ie: If your own Mother comes and tell you Mohammed went in a cave and a spider created a web behind him to hide the tracks, then nod and smile. She is just trying to increase her numbers, and a cave door covered by a web will not change anything today.
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matt2842
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Re: I'm back and I'm an apostate. CHYEAH.

Post by matt2842 »

Dear sid sid
Telling you parents about disbelief in god won't help you, but might hurt you, remember it is not easy for them just to except it.
so not telling them just yet is a wise decision, time will come
sidsid
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Re: I'm back and I'm an apostate. CHYEAH.

Post by sidsid »

Which is why, if you actually know how to read :oops:
would see that I said NOT anytime soon, but some-day. some day is far away.
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enceladus
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Re: I'm back and I'm an apostate. CHYEAH.

Post by enceladus »

sidsid wrote:Which is why, if you actually know how to read :oops:
would see that I said NOT anytime soon, but some-day. some day is far away.
Sounds good to me..... very wise!
- enceladus
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Ibn Rushd
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Re: I'm back and I'm an apostate. CHYEAH.

Post by Ibn Rushd »

Sid sid, very informative replies.

Ram, everyone in Canada asks me my religious beliefs, and if I answer wrongly, then they look down on me. Unfortunately I do not understand what is the right answer, so everyone looks at me funny.
There is no Master but the Master, and QT-1 is his Prophet.

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Idesigner
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Re: I'm back and I'm an apostate. CHYEAH.

Post by Idesigner »

Ibn Rushd wrote:Sid sid, very informative replies.

Ram, everyone in Canada asks me my religious beliefs, and if I answer wrongly, then they look down on me. Unfortunately I do not understand what is the right answer, so everyone looks at me funny.
Dear Ibn,

Hope you are joking!! :D

Perhaps you remember I live in Canada for 35 years.

I am naturalized, visible minority Canadian. Lot older than you.

On my job and in formal interaction no one asks my religious belief.Never when you go to look for job, banks, insurance company, seniors club, golf club . If they find out , your life does not depend what faith you follow.

In closer social set up they may ask for religious belief Again no one judges you based on your belief.

iD
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Ibn Rushd
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Re: I'm back and I'm an apostate. CHYEAH.

Post by Ibn Rushd »

Perhaps I should have expanded: ppl on the streets, classmates, colleagues and "friends" constantly ask me. When I get hired for a job, they don't ask me or any of those other things you listed. But I'm finding that I don't have as many true friends as I thought I did.
There is no Master but the Master, and QT-1 is his Prophet.

Asimov's robot story "Reason"
Idesigner
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Re: I'm back and I'm an apostate. CHYEAH.

Post by Idesigner »

Ibn Rushd wrote:Perhaps I should have expanded: ppl on the streets, classmates, colleagues and "friends" constantly ask me. When I get hired for a job, they don't ask me or any of those other things you listed. But I'm finding that I don't have as many true friends as I thought I did.
Which faith you are talking about?

We run into many goofy christian sects like Jehowahs, Mormons, 7th day, Scientists etc at work . No one makes a big deal about it. Only time I made fun of Witnesss when a couple we knew socially tried 4-5 wee ends to come to house and lecture us. I told tell them not to visit us on sunday, or be our friend and talk something else. This couple lived next door and we ran into them in school function.

No one knows about any ones religion unlesss some one wears burkha or dress like Hutterites. No one on street or at SAIT where I took few courses ever asked me about my religion. Oil patch collleaguse asked me out of curiosity when they found out i eat beef and was Hindu looking and born Hindu.

Are you talking about when you were muslimmah or you dress like a nun or Hutterite?

As far as I know now you are a christian lady and unless you try to preach no one will ask you about your faith.

Right now I belong to a hiking club( 100 members). I am the only east indian and rest are all whites.No one asked about my religion.

Well true friends are hard to find but I have lots of friends to talk to , visit them etc.
sidsid
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Re: I'm back and I'm an apostate. CHYEAH.

Post by sidsid »

enceladus wrote:
sidsid wrote:Which is why, if you actually know how to read :oops:
would see that I said NOT anytime soon, but some-day. some day is far away.
Sounds good to me..... very wise!
- enceladus
:prop:

That's me, Wise! :P
Eopithecus
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Re: I'm back and I'm an apostate. CHYEAH.

Post by Eopithecus »

I''m a card carrying atheist and I have a question. Why was it important to you to leave god as well as Muhammad? To be a non-Muslim doesn 't one just deny belief in Muhammad? It's one thing to take a small step over a crack in the pavement with Muhammad, but quite a leap of faith to deny an invisible God. Just curious!!
sidsid
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Re: I'm back and I'm an apostate. CHYEAH.

Post by sidsid »

I Was never immersed in the religion. And didn't know much about Muhammad, only occasional mentioning by the rents. I did not actually "leave Islam" as I hadn't been practicing for years already. I simply examined the evidence for God...found none, and chose to disbelieve in God. I didn't actually have to stop and think "well bye Islam." That's why it seems like a big jump. I see no reason to believe in God and no reason to be part of a religion for any "moral support" reasons. I'm quite happy not believing in God. I'm thankful never to have believed strongly and to have "felt" God's presence or anything.

Also it doesn't take faith to disbelieve in God. It takes faith to believe in him/it/her.
Ram
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Re: I'm back and I'm an apostate. CHYEAH.

Post by Ram »

Ibn Rushd wrote:Sid sid, very informative replies.

Ram, everyone in Canada asks me my religious beliefs, and if I answer wrongly, then they look down on me. Unfortunately I do not understand what is the right answer, so everyone looks at me funny.
Ibn Rushd, my experience is different. Nobody looks at me funny when find out about my religion. I never had a bad experience. There are Christian hatemonger preachers like Frank Graham, Benny Hinn but almost every Christian in the USA and Canada does not care what my religion is. They do not see any connection between a person's religion and doing one's job, going to school or making a business deal.
वासुदैव कुटुम्बकम्।
سارا سنسار ایک پریوار ہے۔
The Whole World is a Family.
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