One Question

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skynightblaze
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Re: One Question

Post by skynightblaze »

iffo wrote:
skynightblaze
I am an atheist and I dont even in believe in GOD so forget about using arguments like he is beyond our understanding.Why should anyone believe in nature of GOD(like beyond our understanding) when he doesnt even believe in GOD? YOu are yet to prove existence of GOD and even before proving that you are using argument about his nature? GOd exists and is beyond understanding is your belief and its not universally accepted or proven fact which you can use in a debate . The question about nature of entity comes only after you prove first that it exists. You therefore cannot use the argument of nature unless you prove first that GOD exists . Once you prove that GOD exists you again have to prove that human logic cannot apply to him otherwise its just your opinion or belief or an assumption
I don't have to prove existance of God. You look around you will see prove every where. All the
things and systems do not evolve on their own. You look at yourself, your senses, your body(This magnificent machinery can not evolve on its own) that is prove enough. . Its you who need to prove that everything can evolve on its own. When you have a proof let me know. All you need little common sense and less stuborness
The proof around me is not at all sufficient to convince me about existence of GOD. I have already discussed with some believers here. Can you tell me why your so called GOD makes someone a mentally retarded person ? The retarded person is simply left to suffer in this world even when there is no fault of his. World doesnt respect such people .ITs throws them away like you throw waste in a bin. Why create such a person in the first place ? Only to make him suffer ?

Another example is making someone born in a family for whom having food once a day is a luxury Food is a primary need of any human. Can you call such a insane entity as GOD? Right from the birth discrimination is made. I cannot possibly respect such a moronic entity. Even I would be kind and act mercifully. In short evidence around you also leads one to conclusion that there cannot exist an entity such as GOD though sometimes it may make you feel that it may exist.So your point that evidence around me makes me reach a conclusion that GOD exists is not correct.It also sends the wrong signals.

You claim that GOD exists and when asked for proof you use a logic that you discard when it backfires against you.You need to prove that GOD is an exception to the logic you used . When asked why cant the same logic be applied to GOD your answer is he is beyond understanding and that we cant apply human logic to GOD. IS this a universally accepted fact ? I hope you agree with me that only facts can be used in a debate to prove something. This is no way an established or proven fact so what you are doing here is you are supporting your logic with yet another assumption or a belief that you hold.You can support your argument using only facts .So you are supposed to prove as to why GOD is an exception to the logic of yours by providing evidence / proofs/facts and not some of your beliefs.Also my previous post holds true. You havent answered my questions.
Look around yourself and you'll find people with virtues are never required to demand respect since they automatically earn it. It is only those that are devoid of any virtues need to threaten and bully to gain respect. Needless to say that quran cannot be from God.

topcat
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Re: One Question

Post by topcat »

joseph wrote:.

This topic is only for those who have left Islam and joined the godless squad:

I want to see if you actually found a good enough cause to desert Prophet Mohamed.

As a convert from Atheism to Islam, I am very interested in your journey the other way.

Obviously, it would be educational to for an ex-atheist to find out why people are leaving light of Koran and going to the dark side.

I just want to know one thing:

What exactly made you leave the religion of truth. Why did you abandoned the true God.

Why?


I dont want to know hundred reasons, or ten reasons. Tell me just one reason.

Give me your REAL reason for leaving Islam.

One reason.

-----
I have made a journey from Islam to an agnostic position so perhaps I can answer this question of yours.
I found the views of Muhammad to be inconsistent with me philosophical understanding of reality. Nothing personal about Islam, but any structure of thought that claims to have a monopoly of truth and then espouses such a contradictory concept as "the most forgiving and most merciful" God burning one in hell forever because one did not follow his arbitrary rules is to me an incorrect system of thought.
This concept of hell and eternal punishment are my main reason for leaving Islam. I could not come to terms with the creator of billions of galaxies and the countless, beautiful delights within it being so anthropomorphic, so vengeful and frankly, so damn childish. If a man were to create a universe, totally determine everything that would happen within that universe and then punish the members of that universe for not worshipping him, we would be appalled at his cruelty. Yet God, the most highest standard of all qualities, is allowed to conduct this cruel joke on the universe every single day and the believing masses turn a blind eye.

Unfortunately for Islam, as an espouser of this cruel cruel cosmic joke, it cannot be a correct or truthful view of reality. To me, it wasn't an issue of "abandoning the true god" but rather realising that if i ever wanted to know the answer of the big questions i had to abandon a ritualistic, close-minded world view.

sum
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Re: One Question

Post by sum »

Hello topcat

A very warm welcome to FFI. Please stay with us and give us the benefit of your thoughts.

sum

topcat
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Re: One Question

Post by topcat »

thank you very much sum,

i look forward to contributing to this forum

topcat
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Re: One Question

Post by topcat »

iffo wrote:
I don't have to prove existance of God. You look around you will see prove every where. All the
things and systems do not evolve on their own. You look at yourself, your senses, your body(This magnificent machinery can not evolve on its own) that is prove enough. . Its you who need to prove that everything can evolve on its own. When you have a proof let me know. All you need little common sense and less stuborness

The question from the thread starter was on why people have left the muslim god, not god in an abstract sense
yes, an argument can be made that there is a "prime mover" or that there is a creative force behind the evolution of the universe
however, the onus is then on you to prove that this "creative force" is numerically identical to the muslim god

one cannot take the proof of god as the proof of islam, one requires a further premise to make such an argument

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expozIslam
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Re: One Question

Post by expozIslam »

topcat wrote:
iffo wrote:
I don't have to prove existance of God. You look around you will see prove every where. All the
things and systems do not evolve on their own. You look at yourself, your senses, your body(This magnificent machinery can not evolve on its own) that is prove enough. . Its you who need to prove that everything can evolve on its own. When you have a proof let me know. All you need little common sense and less stuborness

The question from the thread starter was on why people have left the muslim god, not god in an abstract sense
yes, an argument can be made that there is a "prime mover" or that there is a creative force behind the evolution of the universe
however, the onus is then on you to prove that this "creative force" is numerically identical to the muslim god

one cannot take the proof of god as the proof of islam, one requires a further premise to make such an argument
well pointed out and welcome to ffi
“The truth, of course, is that a billion falsehoods told a billion times by a billion people are still false.”

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manfred
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Re: One Question

Post by manfred »

iffo,
if you say that the earth and all that is in it proved the existence of God, then tell us,why did God create malaria?
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

yeezevee
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Re: One Question

Post by yeezevee »

manfred
iffo,
if you say that the earth and all that is in it proved the existence of God, then tell us,why did God create malaria?
How are you doing dear manfred ., just a suggestion that is NOTHING TO DO WITH this thread.,

Do Not Let Islamic Bums Dictate Your Goals at FFI and outside., It is O.K. to get dictated by Muslims but Not ISLAMIC BUMS.,

A better question to ask in your post is
iffo,
if you say that the earth and all that is in it proved the existence of God, [background=BFFF80]then tell us,why did God create iffo?
with best wishes
yeezevee

sidsid
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Re: One Question

Post by sidsid »

joseph wrote:.

I just want to know one thing:

What exactly made you leave the religion of truth. Why did you abandoned the true God.

-----


I'm too lazy to sift through the many pages worth of responses. It's relevant to answer the question, therefore I shall.
There are SO many reasons why one would choose to leave religion in general. To abandon a true God, one would have to first assert that this God exists in the first place.

I left Islam for many reasons. I left because I saw through my research and readings, much to make me disbelieve in the God of Judeo-christian-Islamic theology. There are too many contradictions, too many holes, and too many other problems. What made me really actually acknowledge leaving Islam was when I saw the stuff about prophet Muhammed on here. It was written without a bias or a slant and truly delivered the information without trying to cast a happy glow on it. I had always been interested in science and reason and this caused me to look, not at Islam. I didn't really care about that, I hadn't for a while. Probably never. Trying to read the Quran's english translation to see myself turned out to be a bore. It was so repetitive and boring and I felt like rising to the challenge to produce something better than it...which I'm positive any decent writer can do.

Instead this fueled my already raging desire for science, for rationality. I read on many topics, though at times, I felt I was too young and I should just leave it be. I watched videos etc etc. And Islam had never been in the forefront of my thoughts. My interests went to actually thinking about whether there was a god in the first place. I saw no evidence for it. Therefore, from agnosticism I went to being an Atheist.

It has made me a better person. :whistling:

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enceladus
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Re: One Question

Post by enceladus »

sidsid wrote:
joseph wrote:.

I just want to know one thing:

What exactly made you leave the religion of truth. Why did you abandoned the true God.

-----


I'm too lazy to sift through the many pages worth of responses. It's relevant to answer the question, therefore I shall.
There are SO many reasons why one would choose to leave religion in general. To abandon a true God, one would have to first assert that this God exists in the first place.

I left Islam for many reasons. I left because I saw through my research and readings, much to make me disbelieve in the God of Judeo-christian-Islamic theology. There are too many contradictions, too many holes, and too many other problems. What made me really actually acknowledge leaving Islam was when I saw the stuff about prophet Muhammed on here. It was written without a bias or a slant and truly delivered the information without trying to cast a happy glow on it. I had always been interested in science and reason and this caused me to look, not at Islam. I didn't really care about that, I hadn't for a while. Probably never. Trying to read the Quran's english translation to see myself turned out to be a bore. It was so repetitive and boring and I felt like rising to the challenge to produce something better than it...which I'm positive any decent writer can do.

Instead this fueled my already raging desire for science, for rationality. I read on many topics, though at times, I felt I was too young and I should just leave it be. I watched videos etc etc. And Islam had never been in the forefront of my thoughts. My interests went to actually thinking about whether there was a god in the first place. I saw no evidence for it. Therefore, from agnosticism I went to being an Atheist.

It has made me a better person. :whistling:


That's a very good and well-thought-out post, sidsid! Well said!

Oh, by the way, I was just wondering.... As a young ex-Muslim, is it your impression that there are many young so-called "Muslims" who really don't care for the religion? In other words, they are "Muslims" in name only? Keen to hear your comments on that!
- enceladus

InfidelKSA
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Re: One Question

Post by InfidelKSA »

I did not leave Islam except in the literal sense of the world. I left behind submission to a theistic worldview.

I could give 100 reasons easily, but you asked for just 1. Here's my one reason and considering the length of this thread I'm betting someone may have already said it before.

Wishing for something to be true doesn't make it true.

That's it. Plain and simple. Even if religiosity was superior to rationality in every way, even if it gave one a full and happy life, even if it filled you with a sense of purpose you couldn't find anywhere else, even if it answered every one of life's questions in a wholly satisfying way, even if it filled your life with blessings and wonders and killed away all your pain and suffering, even if it was what was truly best for the world, even if it made the invisible man in the sky happy, even if it was the one true path to a blissful afterlife full of sex and binge drinking (it's not)... none of that makes it true.

I can't shut off my brain. Even if I wanted to believe (I don't, there's no reason to), I could not. It's just too damn stupid. Logic and reason proves beyond any shadow of a doubt that no religion is a true religion.

InfidelKSA
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Re: One Question

Post by InfidelKSA »

Cassie wrote:Even George Bernard Shaw said some pretty awful things about Muhammad and Islam. The guy was a SATIRIST. Don't Muslims know what a satirist is?
They do not. At least not Saudis. I've tried to explain it while watching South Park with them but it's difficult. They also don't understand this "over the top" hyperbole to be sarcasm, as your post went on to mention. They routinely speak about themselves, their country, their religion, their companies, their bosses, and each other with such ridiculously flowery praise... it's just accepted as the way people talk here. It's nauseating to a Westerner (or amusing, in the case of obvious sarcasm) but normal to their ears. As evidence, I could post some of the "apology letters" that I have written to my supervisors in the past upon their request. There was never a good reason for me to write any of them, so, passive aggressive jackass that I am I wrote them in the most sarcastic way imaginable. My western colleagues find the letters hilarious, but the supervisors I hand them to never pick up on the sarcasm. The last one I submitted went on for pages about how much I treasured the friendship of the [edit]no.no. no...[/edit] in HR who is always stabbing us in the back, and about how horrified I would be if I had done anything at all to jeopardize our special and meaningful relationship which I value so highly. He took it seriously and ever since then he's been treating me like we are best buddies (though I have no doubt that sooner or later he will find it useful to stab me in the back again).

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enceladus
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Re: One Question

Post by enceladus »

InfidelKSA wrote:
Cassie wrote:Even George Bernard Shaw said some pretty awful things about Muhammad and Islam. The guy was a SATIRIST. Don't Muslims know what a satirist is?
They do not. At least not Saudis. I've tried to explain it while watching South Park with them but it's difficult. They also don't understand this "over the top" hyperbole to be sarcasm, as your post went on to mention. They routinely speak about themselves, their country, their religion, their companies, their bosses, and each other with such ridiculously flowery praise... it's just accepted as the way people talk here. It's nauseating to a Westerner (or amusing, in the case of obvious sarcasm) but normal to their ears. As evidence, I could post some of the "apology letters" that I have written to my supervisors in the past upon their request. There was never a good reason for me to write any of them, so, passive aggressive jackass that I am I wrote them in the most sarcastic way imaginable. My western colleagues find the letters hilarious, but the supervisors I hand them to never pick up on the sarcasm. The last one I submitted went on for pages about how much I treasured the friendship of the [edit]no.no. no...[/edit] in HR who is always stabbing us in the back, and about how horrified I would be if I had done anything at all to jeopardize our special and meaningful relationship which I value so highly. He took it seriously and ever since then he's been treating me like we are best buddies (though I have no doubt that sooner or later he will find it useful to stab me in the back again).

That's a really good bit of insight into life in Saudi Arabia!

Yeah, it's interesting (but not hugely surprising) that Muslims seem to have problems detecting satire. Humour (at least, humour about themselves) seems to be pretty rare in the Islamic world.
- enceladus

InfidelKSA
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Re: One Question

Post by InfidelKSA »

Islamic_Science2 wrote: Let's start with the assumption that the Qur'an was revealed in a geographical location in which Mohammed lived. We would have to look at the orthography of the Qur'an. What script did Allah use to write the Qur'an? The script or Alphabet used to write the Qur'an is derived from the Nabatean Aramaic ABJaD script. Where did the Arabic Alphabet originate?
I'm not Muslim, but I'm interested in this from a historical perspective.

According to Islamic tradition, the Qu'ran was not "written" by Allah, it was transmitted from Allah, to Gabriel, to Muhammad, orally. (like playing that game telephone)

The Qu'ran was not WRITTEN until after Muhammad's death, when they decided that it would be a good idea to take this heretofore oral collection of stories and poetry and commit it to paper. It was written by men, who were followers of Muhammad, who had presumably memorized it all from hearing Muhammad or other Muslims recite it, who in turn got it from Gabriel, who in turn heard it from Allah. Allah never touched pen to parchment, even according to the Muslims.

Furthermore, it is generally accepted that the copy of the Qu'ran that survives to this day is not the oldest copy. Now this is where historians and Muslims may differ. Muslims of course believe the version today is the same exact version as the original version, which they in turn believe to be the exact same thing word-for-word as the original oral version, which they believe that Muhammad was able to memorize perfectly without ever making a mistake after hearing it once from a voice in his head. (no, really!)

However, historians have established that the modern version of the Qu'ran is based on a version that was at earliest written down some 100 or 150 years after Muhammad's death. There is a good chance this was not the only version available at the time, and a good chance it might have been different from the oldest version.

Now, whether the language of the Qu'ran today is the same as the langauge Muhammad spoke or not, and whether the message of the Qu'ran today is identical to the message of the original orally transmitted Qu'ran or not.... it doesn't really matter for your argument because it's irrelevant what script they used in Muhammad's time in the area where he lived. Muhammad never wrote down the Qu'ran. He never even saw a written version of it, as he died before the first one was written.

Isn't it entirely plausible that Muhammad did in fact live in Mecca, Medina, etc... and that his followers who memorized the Qu'ran and passed it along orally spread out and migrated... and that the first copy of the Qu'ran that was written down was in a script different from whatever script Muhammad (supposedly illiterate) would have used? If not, then given the fact that the oldest copy of the Qu'ran that survives is from long after the first copy was written down, isn't it entirely plausible that it is different from the first version and was possibly written in a different script?

The script thing doesn't seem to prove to me at all that Muhammad did not in fact go to Mecca and Medina... that's my main point.

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BlacKStaR
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Re: One Question

Post by BlacKStaR »

I have read through all the responses in this thread. Only to stumble the perfect answer given by Voltaire answering Joseph accurately. In which Joseph ran away and COMPLETELY IGNORED Voltaire\'s responses.

I see that Voltaire has thrashed Joseph and his Islam to small little crock pieces. A mpohamedan has all the rights to leave Islam and he/she must have in all ways completely given a full thought and opinions.

Bravo Voltaire. You , I admire. Islam and Christianity terrorizes the mind of humans with torture and endless punishment under the guise of \"LOVE\'\" from god.

While some lost cases like IFFO who thinks that god cannot be questioned, many have torn god to shreds. ALA is vulnerable, just like the Father in Heaven. These gods need us to make fantasies become true. Otherwise, they are just transparent as water in a glass.
/Islam. I am the chill in the air.

freetobeme
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Re: One Question

Post by freetobeme »

Answer is simple: Islam is not the religion of peace, one true god is present in all of creation even muslims..

fakknows
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Re: One Question

Post by fakknows »

freetobeme wrote:Answer is simple: Islam is not the religion of peace, one true god is present in all of creation even muslims..
The reason i am no longer a muslim is the above quote would be regarded as Shirk (partners with Allah), pantheism you could say. In Islam Allah would get so vexed he would throw you in hell forever

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BlacKStaR
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Re: One Question

Post by BlacKStaR »

[quote=\"fakknows\"][quote=\"freetobeme\"]Answer is simple: Islam is not the religion of peace, one true god is present in all of creation even muslims..[/quote]

The reason i am no longer a muslim is the above quote would be regarded as Shirk (partners with Allah), pantheism you could say. In Islam Allah would get so vexed he would throw you in hell forever[/quote]

God allmighty is not the same as Alla or anything else. Even to the simplest definition of a creator, to the faithful who do not adhere to semitic religion, everything about god is to pay respects to the powers that be.

Not represent god to carry out his vengeful actions on people who do not subscribe to his \"so called\" holy words. That is not God to me.
/Islam. I am the chill in the air.

fakknows
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Re: One Question

Post by fakknows »

BlacKStaR wrote:
\"fakknows\" wrote:
\"freetobeme\" wrote:Answer is simple: Islam is not the religion of peace, one true god is present in all of creation even muslims..
The reason i am no longer a muslim is the above quote would be regarded as Shirk (partners with Allah), pantheism you could say. In Islam Allah would get so vexed he would throw you in hell forever
God allmighty is not the same as Alla or anything else. Even to the simplest definition of a creator, to the faithful who do not adhere to semitic religion, everything about god is to pay respects to the powers that be.

Not represent god to carry out his vengeful actions on people who do not subscribe to his \"so called\" holy words. That is not God to me.
Thats my point exactly, a person should be free to believe in God however they want to. Islam thretens the rest for not believing in its concept of God

yeezevee
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Re: One Question

Post by yeezevee »

fakknows wrote:

Thats my point exactly, a person should be free to believe in God however they want to. Islam threatens the rest for not believing in its concept of God
Would you consider sufi concept of god/allah whatever is same as that of all Muslims or do you think that they are different breed of Muslims with different beliefs dear fakknows??

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