Finally Leaving

[winston]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLTnacYvvg4

I think Ahmed has been swapping notes with her

Winston

[Ram]

Just a typical Muslim, incapable of making any meaningful contribution. Muslims like you are the reason that we don't have any respect for your cult. You emulate a paedophile as a prophet. Open your eyes and see the beautiful world around you instead of mired in the darkness of Islam. Stop looking upto the Paedophile Prophet, and examine your beliefs. There are hundreds of ex-Muslims in this forum. Listen and learn from them instead of abusing them.

You have been life dismissed you filthy and stinky kafir bound to hell

Dismissed.......dismissed.......blah.......blah.......blah.....open your eyes man. Look at the world around you. Heaven and hell are right here on earth. Right now you are living in Islamic hell, in the shadow of your paedophile prophet. You are the real kafir for you believe in a false god and emulate a false prophet who was no better than a bandit and a rapist. You are reading the book of satan, the book of hocus pocus and the hate manual, the Quran. You can dismiss me all you want but one thing will remain the same, that is your fate unless you open your eyes.

When you die you will see the prophet Muhammad burning in hell cursing his Satanic Allah for setting him on the path to hell, misleading him for giving him signs to rape little girl Aisha, and committing incest with his son's wife Zainab. He is cursing himself for listening to Allah and screaming with blood curdling voices, "the curse of True God be upon you Allah for leading me to hell." But alas, its too late. Poor Muhammad, he does not feel like a prophet, he feels like a utter failure. But its too late.

Therefore, AhmedBahgat, turn around and leave the road of darkness called Islam. Do not be a submitter, instead, be a thinker, be a real man, look around you. Look towards the Islamic hell of Saudi Arabia, what do you see.......its all dark...............so dark that not one ray of sun can penetrate...every one is miserable.........there is no trust.......its dog eat dog world......women are humiliated and treated like no more than whores........children are beaten with the Quran.

Now look the other way, towards the West..........there is light......there is love......curiosity.......there is compassion.........everyone is smiling..........men are happy............women are happy.........even kafirs like you are happy.

[FinallyFree]

we muslims are the first to describe the immorality of the west, the baseness of their cultures, etc but when it comes to this pedophillic conduct, we sugarcoat it , cover it as good as possible

So true, the ones who lead the charge against others are always the guilty ones!

It's a bit of a late welcome but welcome nonetheless, freedom feels great doesn't it? I am happy for you that you acheived this.

I hope many more Muslims can reach this level one day.

Thank's for posting your story.

[apostate]

Hi kenmirzz, Very good testimony. You followed your Mind over your Heart in accepting the truth that such a sexual pervert cannot be a prophet of God. Congrats on leaving this cult of hate, fear & terror and welcome to humanity.

[SAM]

[quote="kenmirzz"]Hi everybody, i am Han, mix heritage ( persian, turkish, mongols, etc). i decided to leave islam,

Spoiler! :

this cult of hate and oppression. actually, i stumbled upon this site last year but took no heed of it because i consider it as "anti islamic site'. i was a practising muslim, pray five times a day, fast, and do all the necessary islamic rituals that make me a muslim, at least, though not in the fundamentalist way. being born into not so religious family, my siblings and parents are not really practising muslims themselves. but, islam is dear to them and that is their 'truth'.

though i am not an arab, i learn to read the quran in arabic and able to read it fluently with tajwid though i am not a hafiz. since my childhood, i like to read books on islam and will spend my time in bookshops and libraries browsing through islamic literatures to deepen my knowledge on islam. when i was a teenager, my preference are those books that talk about doomsday, grave, and the advent of dajjal. however, during my twenties, upon entering university, i switch my preference to comparative religions, comparative sects, etc. i watch the debates of ahmed deedat with the christians and greatly impressed by his eloquence, knowledge and quick wittedness in tackling the subject matter at hand. i thought that i am on the 'safe' side, the truth is on me. in addition, zakir naik debates and talks also greatly admired by me.

life goes on as usual, i never think of anything bad about islam or its founder. the moment i read about the atrocities about muslims, i subscribe that to his or her own ignorance of islam. the common respond in my mind or in discussion is: "they are not following true islam, if they follow, none of these things will happen." this is how a muslim is programmed and brainwash.

nevertheless, there is something disturbing that i happen to know accidentally, that besides the polygamous 4 wifes allowance, muslim men can have intercourse with slave girls outside wedlock. it's very irritating to me initially but i discard this as 'satanic whisper' to drive me out of islam. eventually i manage to grab the hadith books Bukhari and Muslim and impatiently start reading it. one more thing that bewildered me again is the marriage of the prophet with 6 year old aisha who was still playing with dolls and swings with her childhood friends. i read the details on how she was grabbed and decorated to be delivered to the prophet. i wonder how can i accept all these despicable stuffs. no normal human will let their beloved 6 or 9 year old daughter to be married at such young age to an old man of 54 year old. it must something wrong here. can the religion i believe in to be the embodiment of truth be a lie, a systematic lie, and hoax of the highest degree? i was quite taken aback at this discovery and a mature, civilized, and normal person cannot ever accept all these immoral attitude.

we muslims are the first to describe the immorality of the west, the baseness of their cultures, etc but when it comes to this pedophillic conduct, we sugarcoat it , cover it as good as possible. i realize that i was on the wrong path. my salaat becomes gradually curtailed shorter and shorter, then i stop it altogether. then i visit the FFI site and read some of the charges by ali sina, they are all well documented. thus, i decided on november 2008 to leave islam. however, i have to keep it secret from my family because i dont want trouble.

this is my testimony, i am a freethinker now but i still believe in God and pray to Him everyday in my own way. i believe that He is far from whatever describes by religions. i dont believe in religion but i believe in God. Human is but one family.

You fail yourself,....the direct result of your own thoughts.

[yeezevee]

You fail yourself,....the direct result of your own thoughts.

.. but .. but Allah is behind those thoughts. behind every thing . It is predetermined.. Without Allah Allah nothing goes in to the brain and nothing comes out of the brain. So no one failed., may be it is allah that failed..

yeezevee

[SAM]

You fail yourself,....the direct result of your own thoughts.

.. but .. but Allah is behind those thoughts. behind every thing . It is predetermined..

Proof it?

Without Allah Allah nothing goes in to the brain and nothing comes out of the brain. So no one failed., may be it is allah that failed..

You're the one who gets in trouble and failed,.....the direct result of your own thoughts and predictable.

[sunshine]

You fail yourself,....the direct result of your own thoughts.

.. but .. but Allah is behind those thoughts. behind every thing . It is predetermined..

Proof it?

MYSTICISM,,,,,,, SECRET TEACHINGS OF THUG MOHAMMED

[kenmirzz]

You fail yourself,....the direct result of your own thoughts.

hi my friend in humanity SAM.

can you elaborate in what way did i failed? i am interested to know so that i can improve on the said area.

you dont mind me describing about you SAM? allow me pal. is it me who is failing or you? my friend, you nearly rejected all the islamic doctrines based on the conjecture that islam, the quran contains esoteric meaning so that you may evade the apparent contradictions and apparent hate inspiring verses. in another thread, i discussed about hell and paradise and you suddenly turn the table and said that you disbelieve in physical torture of both abode. come on SAM, you have been meditating for 2 years right? why are you lying to yourself?

let me politely answer. for most muslims, islam is everything, islam encompasses your entire life. hence, to resort to alternative religions or way of life is unthinkable for many muslims, be him or her a sunni, sufi, salafi, shia or submitters. you could not entertain the notion that the religion that had been descended till modern times and passed to you by your ancestors is not true or simply contestable. you shudder at the thought that to live without islam is equal to dying. the sole way to escape this dilemma is turning blind eye to the other side of the leave, the greener side of the leave. the sufis, to a certain extent managed to tally the imbalance part of islam by sugarcoat many verses with spiritual flavour.

mr SAM, meditation, ascetism and all sufistic practices are aimed at loving the incomprehensible god ,right? but god is not limited with islam. even the islamic conception of god is questionable. if your heart is attracted to find god, then it has nothig to do with islam, it's your innate instinct. same goes for hindu fakirs, or the christian hermits. they find their god in their respective religions, and you with islam. all of you can love god even without religions interfere in between.

just my two cents.

humanity is but one family.

[luca]

hello kenmirzz!
i m agree with u about some miracles.i dont belive either in my religion in saint bones,or statue who bleed and so on.i belive only when miracles are personal.likeGod can heal u while u can sleep,like a dream when God show u a way to go,i belive in vision while u pray.i have miracles in my grandparentes and granduncles life.thats was personal and i think is wonderfull.i think devil can make miracles too special with what eyes can see.here are included your examples and i can put thousants.for example i saw on tv a guy from brazil who said he can heal all peoples cz he have all saints in him and God send him.this is a lie and cruel.special when i saw sick peoples there who look like they sleep always and they pay a lot of money for his "procedures".and also when this guy accept to see peoples whom knee front of him and kiss his hand!yuk!!!this is a lie.many peoples like him can do this.i can accept this guy have in him a devil army inside who can make"miracles".a pray can heal u,i pray can give u peace,i pray can heal your heart when u are hurted and so on.i belive when Jesus heal peoples in His time.but he never took advantage from peoples.He just heal them and give them faith in God.to belive and change them sin life.a personal miracle,can change your life and future but in good way.
when i say in my last comment about peoples who was in surgery and they die for few minutes or second i wanted to underline something else.i want it to say exist heaven and hell and only God can decide who go in heaven.not a realigion can choose this.this was what i underline.
also,about vision i can say not all can be real.u can see devil like light to tell u to kill or hate or to choose a wrong side and u can belive this is u are weak.a vision from God or a dream never look like to advice u to do something bad.also,when u ask God to revelate in your life this can be possible too.
now,about prayers.i belive we have to pray at God every day.we can make it 2 times or 10 times.this we have to do if we feel we have to pray in differentes momentes of a day.if u pray 5 times like is in islam and i dont think is something bad,but if u pray and think in that momentes what u have to eat,or what u forget to do,that pray can`t go higher then your plafon room.this is my opinion!
we need a directly relationship with God and not with a religion.religion can help u to be closer but when u feel deeply in your heart that is healthy,and help u to see truth!
may God bless all of u!

Hi Luca, God bless you too. i agree with you about the impostor that appear and claim to possess healing miracle to cheat the gullible public. this is similar in every community either muslims, christians or hindus. what is consternating is that they seem to be quite 'skillful' that may put many a magician under the table. however, these are all fraud, eye deceiving technique.

Luca, i doubtlessly agree with you regarding prayer. we can pray at any time at our own discretion with sincere heart in a language that we understand to God, thus, the miracle of God appearing to a sick man and heal him is something i do not deny either. not everything can be explained by science but the scientific explanation of it is yet to be disclosed with our current technology.

besides that, every person has his or her own version of "Reality" in action. we are all perceiving something within our own 'reality' which may or may not similar with others. i believe that "reality" is relative, not absolute. this has nothing to do with scientific phenomenon such as earth is spherical in shape. i give you an example, Luca, the "reality" of a person living in Kalinga, India, 2000 years ago is different from a person living in Luo Yang, China, 2000 years ago. the person living in China and India perceives different 'reality' in their life, different experience, and entirely different understanding of life, etc. in relation with this, the 'reality' of the sick patient who happen to be healed by God's miracle cannot be generalized as the same 'reality' to others. this enigma is complicated but suffice to explain how people in different religions may have certain godly experience or miracles in their life that tend to strengthen their faith. it's the 'reality' which is not absolute that work behind the scene. this is a disputing theory and i welcome discussion on it.

human is but one family.

hello kenmirzz!
very smart what u say.now i want to underline the fact my subject of reality is true God.ok?:)
now,peoples have different construction of character,language,skin,feelings and so on.what make us to be the same is love.without this we are different.
peoples from asia 2000 y ago think different cz world was different and we cant deny this.from the beggining of this world exists a lot of gods.peoples have a empty place in soul who never can be busy with other thing,just with a feeling to belive in a god.this enigma was discovery even today by sience.in front of our brain exist a small part who function only in spiritual way.so,beyound of water,food and other needs we cant live without spiritual faith.
now,about religion and miracles.devil can make miracles very easy for human.the difference between real miracles and "real" miracles is not too far.when a real miracle happend in your life,u know God let His signiture in u.and u cant have any doubt even u start beeing confuse.but cz God make this in your life u see His reality and nothing cant disturb u.
the other kind of "miracles" is when u pray to a wrong god and here come devil.devil can make miracles for u to make u more blind and cant see other reality.and u belive that stone(is a silly sample),or statue,or a sacrifice u make(to cut your self like ofrand for your god)can give u something u need.sometime this happend but not to save your life.your life can remain the same.for example:u hate a man,and u want that man to die.u go to a church where is a statue or if u are wild and dont have a church u go to i dont know to kill a cow and make an ofrand to a god.and that man who u hate die,u think that god help u and listen your wish and that is your miracles.this is a "reality"and is ok for u.maybe u can heal your self cz devil can make it easy too.here is nothing imposible.but as i said,when something real happend be sure your life is a good reality and this is not relative,is absolute.
i m not too smart but i know to see true reality.
about religion now.as u know in this world the real war is between religion.all belive his or her religion is the best.as u know from along time ago christian was most acussed bcz Jesus.in india present day,christian are killed,in islam the same,in china the same,in africa the same,in comunist country,the same.this are real facts are not storys for baby.here i m talking about real christian ok?peoples who loose them life,or suffer prisons for God bcz they love God.
in inquisition many christian was killed bcz some "lighted heads"(priests)if u was too religious u were acussed like beeing a wizard,or possessed by devil and so on.today happend too but not like 1000 y ago.u know in Bible God tell us we will suffer bcz of His name.Jesus said:"in world u will have troubles,but dare,cz I defeat world".
that why i belive peoples who discover reality of God,allways will have trouble bcz of other peoples but also can have part everyday of miracles.when u discover God u may suffer,u can be seek,u can be insulted and rejected but u will have faith,hope and peace.and real God never let u down in any situation u can be.
now,in christianity are many religion too so...i wont say my religion is best cz i will be a lier.a christian is a person who belive in Jesus not in a doctrine.not all "christian"can read Bible and can understand like in islam not all can see like u see Quran.many "christian"never read Bible but they make them life bcz of tradition,like in islam,many muslim dont read Quran but they live and belive in a tradition,cz family teach them like this.
today relgion world is based by tradition and less on God.that why the reality is not always a reality.
i apologise if i talk too much and maybe is hard to understand cz my english is poor but this are my points of view and i wait u with questions and we can discuss on that.
God bless u!

[kenmirzz]

hi luca, thanks for replying. dont worry about your english, i understood them and you have the right to talk and contradict me, i will defend your freedom of speech. exchanging ideas and opinions are human basic way to self improvement.

hello kenmirzz!
very smart what u say.now i want to underline the fact my subject of reality is true God.ok?:)

thank you luca. please present your argument.

now,peoples have different construction of character,language,skin,feelings and so on.what make us to be the same is love.without this we are different.

i agree with infinite percentage. all these make us human unique in a way so that we strive to love each other and work for the same cause. love may diminish the prejudice inherent in our nature too, when language and skin colour varied.

peoples from asia 2000 y ago think different cz world was different and we cant deny this.from the beggining of this world exists a lot of gods.peoples have a empty place in soul who never can be busy with other thing,just with a feeling to belive in a god.this enigma was discovery even today by sience.in front of our brain exist a small part who function only in spiritual way.so,beyound of water,food and other needs we cant live without spiritual faith.

believe in divinity and supernatural is human way of dependancy to 'greater force' than us. science does not lead to supernatural, it describes phenomenon that can be perceived through our senses, explore the mystery of universe, creatures' anatomy, and many more. i respect both sides of the view, theistic and atheistic. coming back to the 2000 years ago comparison, i was contrasting the 'reality' of both people, one live in india and the other live in china contemporarily. they indeed perceive different 'reality' in their life due to environment, culture, way of living, etc. i was not comparing 2000 years ago with recent occasion.

[now,about religion and miracles.devil can make miracles very easy for human.the difference between real miracles and "real" miracles is not too far.when a real miracle happend in your life,u know God let His signiture in u.and u cant have any doubt even u start beeing confuse.but cz God make this in your life u see His reality and nothing cant disturb u.
the other kind of "miracles" is when u pray to a wrong god and here come devil.devil can make miracles for u to make u more blind and cant see other reality.and u belive that stone(is a silly sample),or statue,or a sacrifice u make(to cut your self like ofrand for your god)can give u something u need./quote]

the idea of antrophormic god or gods is not recent, but very ancient. from polytheism to monotheism, this idea of antrophormic god lend credentials to the believe in the devil too. human describe god in a way to satisfy his or her spiritual thirst( the part of the front brain do the job). they fail to describe god incomprehensibly, hence, they equate god with human features. the abrahamic concept of god(judaism, christianity and islam) share similar tendancy. tell you a story, i had a friend who converted from sikhism to christianity. he related to me his story of conversion. he said that he saw god in human form after telling himself: "if god exist, i want to see him". when i rehash his story to my another friend who is a non christian, he simply dismissed the story as devillish plot to deceive him. personally, i do not doubt the experience of my converted friend, his 'reality' worked hand in hand with the spiritual part of his front brain to form a convincing image for him, thus, i believe in his story. when a person set himself for the quest of supernatural, he will definitely experience the 'reality', even though all these 'reality' experience are subjective in nature and varied from person to person. nevertheless, the benchmark to determine whether the experience is from god or devil still yet to be established. at the moment, i do not believe in devil as his existence will tarnish the image of a holy and pure god who allowed the world to be stained by such evil at the sacrifice of humanity. the evil devil is not a spiritual being but the evil within ourselves which is the opposite of all virtues.

but as i said,when something real happend be sure your life is a good reality and this is not relative,is absolute.

it's 'absoluteness' is still subjective and relative if we take into accounts the billion population of humanity, each claim to possess the 'absolute reality'.

i m not too smart but i know to see true reality.

i know you are very good hearted and smart woman, luca. you dont know how i wish that the 'true reality' you know is indeed true. i really wish it from the bottom of my heart.

[about religion now.as u know in this world the real war is between religion.all belive his or her religion is the best.as u know from along time ago christian was most acussed bcz Jesus.in india present day,christian are killed,in islam the same,in china the same,in africa the same,in comunist country,the same.this are real facts are not storys for baby.here i m talking about real christian ok?peoples who loose them life,or suffer prisons for God bcz they love God.
in inquisition many christian was killed bcz some "lighted heads"(priests)if u was too religious u were acussed like beeing a wizard,or possessed by devil and so on.today happend too but not like 1000 y ago.u know in Bible God tell us we will suffer bcz of His name.Jesus said:"in world u will have troubles,but dare,cz I defeat world".
that why i belive peoples who discover reality of God,allways will have trouble bcz of other peoples but also can have part everyday of miracles.when u discover God u may suffer,u can be seek,u can be insulted and rejected but u will have faith,hope and peace.and real God never let u down in any situation u can be.
/quote]

the persecutions that took place hundreds of years ago and recently are all caused by humanity swerved from the path of truth, path of love that we must have to each other. the persecutions may come in disguise of religions or atheism.

now,in christianity are many religion too so...i wont say my religion is best cz i will be a lier.a christian is a person who belive in Jesus not in a doctrine.not all "christian"can read Bible and can understand like in islam not all can see like u see Quran.many "christian"never read Bible but they make them life bcz of tradition,like in islam,many muslim dont read Quran but they live and belive in a tradition,cz family teach them like this.
today relgion world is based by tradition and less on God.that why the reality is not always a reality.

there is no such thing as true religion according to my humble opinion. we are all, first and foremost, from the family of humanity. thus, we have no special right to annhilate and destroy each other which may caused this family to collapse.

i apologise if i talk too much and maybe is hard to understand cz my english is poor but this are my points of view and i wait u with questions and we can discuss on that.
God bless u!

you never wronged me, no need to apologize. i understand all your points.i need to apologize if i ever write something that you feel hurt. god bless you too!

humanity is but one family.

[SAM]

hi my friend in humanity SAM.

can you elaborate in what way did i failed? i am interested to know so that i can improve on the said area.

As already stated in another thread, "Qur'an is not divine".

you dont mind me describing about you SAM? allow me pal. is it me who is failing or you? my friend, you nearly rejected all the islamic doctrines based on the conjecture that islam, the quran contains esoteric meaning so that you may evade the apparent contradictions and apparent hate inspiring verses. in another thread, i discussed about hell and paradise and you suddenly turn the table and said that you disbelieve in physical torture of both abode. come on SAM, you have been meditating for 2 years right? why are you lying to yourself?

I do not lie by withholding the truth from you and it seems to me that you are.....somewhat misunderstands my 'metaphorical' explaination, isn't it?

let me politely answer. for most muslims, islam is everything, islam encompasses your entire life. hence, to resort to alternative religions or way of life is unthinkable for many muslims, be him or her a sunni, sufi, salafi, shia or submitters. you could not entertain the notion that the religion that had been descended till modern times and passed to you by your ancestors is not true or simply contestable. you shudder at the thought that to live without islam is equal to dying. the sole way to escape this dilemma is turning blind eye to the other side of the leave, the greener side of the leave. the sufis, to a certain extent managed to tally the imbalance part of islam by sugarcoat many verses with spiritual flavour.

To know one's true being, to know the purpose of one's life, and to know how to accomplish that purpose. Sufism does not mean goodness, kindness, or piety. Sufism means wisdom. All things in life are materials for wisdom to work with, wisdom cannot be restricted to any principals. Among Sufis there have been great souls who were Kings, and others who were in the position of beggars, saints, workmen, commanders, generals, businessmen, statesmen, or prophets; and in all ages the Sufis have practiced Sufism in all walks of life. This shows that no one can point out a particular belief or tenet and say it is a Sufi doctrine. So it is with Sufism: it is all beliefs and no belief in particular. There is no action which the Sufi calls right or wrong, for every action can become right and can also become wrong. It depends on the use or the abuse of the action, its fitness or unfitness. Right or wrong depends on the attitude and the situation, not the action and so on.

mr SAM, meditation, ascetism and all sufistic practices are aimed at loving the incomprehensible god ,right?

Incorrect not incomprehensible...... it is for the term of wide comprehensiveness.

but god is not limited with islam.

Correct.

even the islamic conception of god is questionable. if your heart is attracted to find god, then it has nothig to do with islam, it's your innate instinct. same goes for hindu fakirs, or the christian hermits. they find their god in their respective religions, and you with islam. all of you can love god even without religions interfere in between.

Totally disagreed, tell me what is most needed is to understand what religion means, the present religion, the coming religion, or the past religion is for those who divide the truth, which is one, into many, in point of fact what was is, and what is will be. This variety of religions which has engaged humanity for years in conflict with one another, isn't it?.

[enceladus]

Hi kenmirzz! Well done - good on you for leaving Islam!

Your testimony was wonderful to see. It is truly inspiring that in spite of Islam's efforts to grind people down and to try to make them the same (and to try to spread as much hatred as possible), there are people like yourself around who refuse to submit to that evil nonsense!

It's good to have you here! Looking forward to reading many more of your posts!
- enceladus

[kenmirzz]

hi Mr SAM.

As already stated in another thread, "Qur'an is not divine".

i already read them and give my two cents.

I do not lie by withholding the truth from you and it seems to me that you are.....somewhat misunderstands my 'metaphorical' explaination, isn't it?

sorry pal. just my way of saying why you clouded your thought and sane judgment when the problem occur with islam is as clear as the sun. i have problem with so many unethical conduct that the prophet did. when i compare him with other religious personalities such as buddha or jesus, he occupy lower place than the former in terms of ethics. i could not comprehend why you overlook so many defects in him, he is far from being perfect or morally superior. no matter how objective i study about him, i cannot justify all that acts especially his marriage with minor, aisha and his lust for zainab binti jahsh. these were some of the contributing factors that lead me out of islam.

To know one's true being, to know the purpose of one's life, and to know how to accomplish that purpose. Sufism does not mean goodness, kindness, or piety. Sufism means wisdom. All things in life are materials for wisdom to work with, wisdom cannot be restricted to any principals. Among Sufis there have been great souls who were Kings, and others who were in the position of beggars, saints, workmen, commanders, generals, businessmen, statesmen, or prophets; and in all ages the Sufis have practiced Sufism in all walks of life. This shows that no one can point out a particular belief or tenet and say it is a Sufi doctrine. So it is with Sufism: it is all beliefs and no belief in particular. There is no action which the Sufi calls right or wrong, for every action can become right and can also become wrong. It depends on the use or the abuse of the action, its fitness or unfitness. Right or wrong depends on the attitude and the situation, not the action and so on.

people had been practice ascetism and celibacy since time immemorial in order to approach god. though the terminalogy named 'sufism' was coined after the emergance of islam, it by no means to be an alien practice. thus, it is right to classify sufis from other religions such as buddhism or hinduism or christianity into 1 group. even imam ghazali in his book ihya u'lu muddin gave examples of sufis that exist during the time of greek philosophers. he even lied about the greek philosophers, accusing them of plagiarising medical and astronomical knowledge from the books of ancient sufis and prophets.

Incorrect not incomprehensible...... it is for the term of wide comprehensiveness.

'laisa kamithli shai' and 'walam yakullahu kufuwan ahad' are portion of verses in quran that substantiate the incomprehensibility of god in islam.

Totally disagreed, tell me what is most needed is to understand what religion means, the present religion, the coming religion, or the past religion is for those who divide the truth, which is one, into many, in point of fact what was is, and what is will be. This variety of religions which has engaged humanity for years in conflict with one another, isn't it?.

thanks SAM, you admit that religions are and were the source of conflict that pervaded humanity. it's not because people try to divide the truth, it's each party claimed to possess the ultimate truth. thus, religions became the source of confusion and misery of humanity. as i conclude earlier, i believe in god, but not religion anymore.

humanity is but one family.

[SAM]

sorry pal. just my way of saying why you clouded your thought and sane judgment when the problem occur with islam is as clear as the sun. i have problem with so many unethical conduct that the prophet did. when i compare him with other religious personalities such as buddha or jesus, he occupy lower place than the former in terms of ethics. i could not comprehend why you overlook so many defects in him, he is far from being perfect or morally superior. no matter how objective i study about him,

Muhammad ibn Abdullah who is only a Messenger, a human being, one like everyone else, and who is subject to death and destruction and all the limitations of life. So, WHO'S REAL MUHAMMAD.... namely Rasul Allah, Habib Allah, Ruh, Nur and Muhammad Abduhu wa ar-Rasuluh.

i cannot justify all that acts especially his marriage with minor, aisha and his lust for zainab binti jahsh. these were some of the contributing factors that lead me out of islam.

Aisha was 9 yrs old when Muhammad married her and her father was Muhammad best friend Abu-Bakkr was like brothers so one doesn’t marry his best friend’s daughter as if he is her uncle. So he married her to break the rule too. They wanted to ease the Arab's strain of moving from paganism beliefs and custom to Islam.... Muhammad loved her the most and she was the only one who was virgin when they got married. And, most of the women he married were over 50 years old and sometimes older than him, widows and have children... so, if he is marrying for sex or lust, I believe he would have married younger and virgin women, all he had to do is ask, and all his companions will offer him their daughters, as this is considered an honor for them.

people had been practice ascetism and celibacy since time immemorial in order to approach god. though the terminalogy named 'sufism' was coined after the emergance of islam, it by no means to be an alien practice. thus, it is right to classify sufis from other religions such as buddhism or hinduism or christianity into 1 group. even imam ghazali in his book ihya u'lu muddin gave examples of sufis that exist during the time of greek philosophers. he even lied about the greek philosophers, accusing them of plagiarising medical and astronomical knowledge from the books of ancient sufis and prophets.

Sufi has always been considered as the essence of every religion and all religions.

'laisa kamithli shai' and 'walam yakullahu kufuwan ahad' are portion of verses in quran that substantiate the incomprehensibility of god in islam.

As I said, Alif which is originally derived from a Dot and represents Zero, nothingness. It is that nothingness which creates the first form Alif. That is why Almighty, whose name comes from Alif, is Hidden Treasure under His own manifestation and so on... "Allah is Single, and He loves that which is single. That is to say, He loves work that is sincerely devoted to Him, without hypocritical display and the pursuit of fame".

thanks SAM, you admit that religions are and were the source of conflict that pervaded humanity. it's not because people try to divide the truth, it's each party claimed to possess the ultimate truth. thus, religions became the source of confusion and misery of humanity. as i conclude earlier, i believe in god, but not religion anymore.

Strictly speaking, life is religion. When one has that ideal before one with whatever occupation one is concerned, Freethinker, Atheist, Gnostic, Business, Industry, Domestic life, or whatever it is, one carries it out, trying to be worthy of it, that is religion.

It doesn't matter what religion you are and we all die as Islam."To Allah we belong and unto Him we shall return",

[kenmirzz]

Hi my human friend SAM

Muhammad ibn Abdullah who is only a Messenger, a human being, one like everyone else, and who is subject to death and destruction and all the limitations of life. So, WHO'S REAL MUHAMMAD.... namely Rasul Allah, Habib Allah, Ruh, Nur and Muhammad Abduhu wa ar-Rasuluh.

you accept the prime premise that muhammad was but a normal human with no special divine ordained uniqueness, that is agreeable. however, then you shift to the 'REAL MUHAMMAD' stance that bewildered me even more. anyone can claim to be a Rasul Allah or Habib Allah, for that matter, gather gullible followers around himself. judge a person by his actions, not words. in analogy, if a person is a murderer, then being a Nur Allah does not in any way exempt him from being convicted as guilty. his actions are so tangible in hadiths and the quran itself. judge him by the record of his conduct, not through some hotch podge philosophical twist of facts. if as a human he is not qualified to be regarded as ethical, then, the 'other side' of him which represent the holiness as you mentioned does not release him from the limitation of life. each and every bogus religious personalities apply your 'two sided' concepts the fullest in order to cheat credulous people. nothing new.

Aisha was 9 yrs old when Muhammad married her and her father was Muhammad best friend Abu-Bakkr was like brothers so one doesn’t marry his best friend’s daughter as if he is her uncle. So he married her to break the rule too. They wanted to ease the Arab's strain of moving from paganism beliefs and custom to Islam.... Muhammad loved her the most and she was the only one who was virgin when they got married. And, most of the women he married were over 50 years old and sometimes older than him, widows and have children... so, if he is marrying for sex or lust, I believe he would have married younger and virgin women, all he had to do is ask, and all his companions will offer him their daughters, as this is considered an honor for them.

reflect a moment, put yourself under the same shoes of abu bakar, will you simply gave away your 9 year old daughter to a person claiming to be a holy pir(saint) who at the same time is your best friend? if your answer is unhesitatingly 'yes', then i am speechless. i am exhausted of idea to rationalize with you. it's a world difference between out thoughts, and they are mutually exclusive.

Sufi has always been considered as the essence of every religion and all religions.

yes. but the 'sufi' in islam are in different category. they thrust a dagger into the islamic legalistic and rigid approach, then offering 'sweets and honey' version of islam to outsiders who are in thirst of spiritual knowledge. these truth seekers eventually being hoodwinked into believing islam as the ultimate truth and join into this cult. SAM, do you know that the sufis style of preaching was very effective and they manage to convert the whole Chechnya and Ingushetia in the Caucassus region to islam? this is indeed true and now the chechens are reverting back to the old puritanical version of islam and became a menace in that region, the Beslan tragedy was one of it.

As I said, Alif which is originally derived from a Dot and represents Zero, nothingness. It is that nothingness which creates the first form Alif. That is why Almighty, whose name comes from Alif, is Hidden Treasure under His own manifestation and so on... "Allah is Single, and He loves that which is single. That is to say, He loves work that is sincerely devoted to Him, without hypocritical display and the pursuit of fame".

more sophistry of hurufism. SAM, do you think that god is limited in arabic only? the 'alif' is a hijaiyyah letter, nothing special. if now i want to argue that the word 'GOD' has some hidden meanings in it, would you believe? the letter 'G' is half circle bended and halted at the middle to show unlimited knowledge of the creator. do you buy this absurdities? the letter 'alif' are attached to so many arabic words, i.e. AL-KAZZAB. what's this has to do with hidden treasure? come on pal, be reasonable.

Strictly speaking, life is religion. When one has that ideal before one with whatever occupation one is concerned, Freethinker, Atheist, Gnostic, Business, Industry, Domestic life, or whatever it is, one carries it out, trying to be worthy of it, that is religion.

It doesn't matter what religion you are and we all die as Islam."To Allah we belong and unto Him we shall return",

life is not religion. life is consciousness, self awareness. religion is human's limited effort to comprehend the universe within the constraint of his or her current environment. whenever there is lack of science, religion prevail, vice versa.

i am relief to hear that you believe everybody will die in islam and admitted to paradise eventually. but you are alone in this argument, pal.
i stop right here. adios amigos.

humanity is but one family.

[winston]

i cannot justify all that acts especially his marriage with minor, aisha and his lust for zainab binti jahsh. these were some of the contributing factors that lead me out of islam.

Aisha was 9 yrs old when Muhammad married her and her father was Muhammad best friend Abu-Bakkr was like brothers so one doesn’t marry his best friend’s daughter as if he is her uncle. So he married her to break the rule too. They wanted to ease the Arab's strain of moving from paganism beliefs and custom to Islam.... Muhammad loved her the most and she was the only one who was virgin when they got married. And, most of the women he married were over 50 years old and sometimes older than him, widows and have children... so, if he is marrying for sex or lust, I believe he would have married younger and virgin women, all he had to do is ask, and all his companions will offer him their daughters, as this is considered an honor for them.

SAM,

It is a shame that you try to justify the marriage of a 54 year old to a 6 year old child. With all your mystical musings this must be a difficult thing to just wish away, I feel sorry for you.

Mohammed didn't know the meaning of the word love, his life was governed by a lust for power, possessions and sex. Most of the women he married were NOT over 50, in fact most were teenagers and much younger than him. Khadija was the only wife that was older.

You consider it a noble deed that the prophet married a widow (Safiyah Bint Huyeiy Ibn Akhtab). Do you also consider it noble that the 'Prophet' took this woman as his share of war booty and had sex with her on the same night that he slaughtered her husband and family AND destroyed her hometown? By the way, she was 17 and 'very beautiful' so he should get extra praise for his kindness!

Winston

[Chief Chingachgook]

Aisha was 9 yrs old when Muhammad married her and her father was Muhammad best friend Abu-Bakkr was like brothers so one doesn’t marry his best friend’s daughter as if he is her uncle. So he married her to break the rule too. They wanted to ease the Arab's strain of moving from paganism beliefs and custom to Islam....

This just go on to show how misguided Mr. PissBUH was SAM and how narrow-minded people like you (who in their haste to whitewash Mr. PissBUH forgot to look at the big picture) are, sorry about that. I say, even if Mr. PissBUH HAD NO OTHER WAY to teach these nomadic Bedouins except by examples, he could have waited till Ayesha was sweet sixteen before bonking her. But then again it is because Mr. PissBUH wanted to tell those lizard-chasing Bedouins that the onset of mense means puberty which in turn means the girl was bonkable. These silly excuses are nothing but lies brought up by muslims in their futile effort to make their Mr. PissBUH look good. Where is the Ah-hah-hah-hah-hah-Hadith that says that Mr. PissBUH did that to 'teach' muslims? I don't want to believe in all these craps. There seems to be no such trend in as far as the Mr. PissBUH's action is concerned. For instance, he sailed along with slavery, lootings, raidings, murder, cursings, wars etc like there was no tomorrow. Are these teachings-by-examples too? These are sinful and criminal acts which should be the very first thing that he or Allah should address but no they even make it a divine thing to do!!!!! Look around you in the world today, they are following in the footstep of the evil 20%Profit. Get outta there while you still can SAM, the boat is sinking.

[dianagrace]

Really informative forum here..thanks for all the posts..I'm christian with muslic friends..so it's good for me to know what's going on around me religion-wise. Let me suggest to people who have left islam - why not read the New Testament in a new light??

[winston]

Really informative forum here..thanks for all the posts..I'm christian with muslic friends..so it's good for me to know what's going on around me religion-wise. Let me suggest to people who have left islam - why not read the New Testament in a new light??

Hi Dianagrace,

It is likely that your Muslim friends are very nice people (as many Muslims are) because they have very little knowledge of their own scriptures. The Islamic scriptures actually command Muslims to be harsh against unbelievers, not take them as friends but fight them until they submit to the rule of Islamic law etc.

The more you can learn about Islam the better. There are many difficult questions that you can ask a peace-loving Muslim of good conscience which would encourage them to analyse their faith critically. If you are doing it from a Christian perspective you should check out http://www.answering-islam.org" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and http://www.investigateislam.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; as well.

Winston