Finally Leaving

[Ram]

i cannot justify all that acts especially his marriage with minor, aisha and his lust for zainab binti jahsh. these were some of the contributing factors that lead me out of islam.

Aisha was 9 yrs old when Muhammad married her and her father was Muhammad best friend Abu-Bakkr was like brothers so one doesn’t marry his best friend’s daughter as if he is her uncle. So he married her to break the rule too. They wanted to ease the Arab's strain of moving from paganism beliefs and custom to Islam.... Muhammad loved her the most and she was the only one who was virgin when they got married. And, most of the women he married were over 50 years old and sometimes older than him, widows and have children... so, if he is marrying for sex or lust, I believe he would have married younger and virgin women, all he had to do is ask, and all his companions will offer him their daughters, as this is considered an honor for them.

Very interesting SAM. He wanted to facilitate the Arab's (I presume you mean Abu-Bakkr) move from Paganism to Islam so he decides to bonk Bakkr's 9 year old daughter. I don't know if I should laugh or cry. SAM, I am impressed with you for making such an inane statement. You think we are all stupid here. Muhammad married 9 year old Ayesha because he was a sex pervert, a paedophile. If Muhammad were really a prophet he would have known that it is wrong to have sex with a child and it will always will wrong. The fact is that Muhammad was not a prophet but an imposter, Allah was the figment of his imagination. Muhammad loved Ayesha the most because he lusted after children.

But at least, we should give credit to SAM for a acklowledging thr fact that Ayesha was indeed 9 year old child when the old geezer married her. Now he should accept the fact that Muhammad was a paedophile and he was not a prophet.

[0x29a]

My heart is filled with joy whenever i see a new person leaving islam, or leaving religion.. the struggle and fear is not so easy to overcome.

Like they said, welcome to humanity!

At the end you said you bleieve in god but not in religion, but to be honest with you religion invented god, or religion was invented because god was assumed. everybody wants his own god and everybody thinks their god is the real god. but really if you think about it, which one is it? and if you answer this question I'm sure you said YOUR god was the real one and left out everyone else's.

God is a myth, it doesn't exist and doesn't play any role in our life, god will answer ambious prayers, he might bloom another flower for your joy or might make you pass an exam that you studied for, but he'll never do anything unnatural because it doesn't exist.

you can roll around all the way you want and talk about the things that we don't know in the universe, but you'll never prove its solid existance without talking about what we don't know. The universe is so complex to understand, and having an idea that god made it all is comforting and easy believable.. but is it true? that is the real question... just because it fits all the answers it doesn't prove it..

God evolved from an object like a wooden sculpture or a stone, into unkown undefeatible abstracts like the sun and the thunder.. and the more we know about the universe the more god seem to shrink to only fit in the unkown.. and now there's only room for an abstract god that doesn't have a shape or a location or a smell .. a god that simply exists only in our imagination..

Peace and love for all of you..

[yeezevee]

welcome to ffi dear 0x29a., I don't think humanity will ever let go the concept of "GOD" dear 0x29a., It is possible that we may get over "The god that is depicted in religions/religious books"., But it is hard to imagine human minds not inquiring the God and concept of God..

with best wishes
yeezevee

[ronyvo]

Hi everybody, i am Han
this is my testimony, i am a freethinker now but i still believe in God and pray to Him everyday in my own way. i believe that He is far from whatever describes by religions. i dont believe in religion but i believe in God. Human is but one family.

Hi Han, I congratulate you for your courage, free thinking and honesty.
You followed 2 of 3 steps to leave the dark and go to the light.
1- You allowed your God given brain to look for the thruth. 2- Made a decission to leave Islam.
3- this is the most important step. I am saying this because YOU said that you believe in God.
I am a Christian who lived in an Islamic country for over 25 years, which was a nightmere. The ugly treatment by Muslims to the Chritians was an overwhelming horrible life.
I was FORCED to study the Koran (in Arabic). I could not uderstand why any smart and educated person stays in such violent and wicked "'faith'. One of the reasons is apostacy is punishable by death in Islam. BUT, WHAT ABOUT HERE IN A FREE CULTURE?!
Muslims are let to believe, wrongly, that we worship 3 gods. Nothing is furtherr from the truth. We worship ONE God and One God only, a God od love and peace.
Allow me to introduce you to the TRUTH, just for your information. This I wrote myself after 9/11/01:
The first principle of the doctrine of the Trinity is that there is only one, true, eternal, living Being who is God by nature and Maker of heaven and earth.
Trinitarians do not believe that the Father, Son and Holy Sprit are three separate gods.
“I am the Lord and there none else.” (Isa.45:18b)
“There is one God.” (1Tim.2:5)
The evidence is so overwhelming that even the demons understand that there is only one God (James 2:19). Yet, such cults as the Mormons teach that there are billions of gods.
Mohammad had the mistaken idea that the Christians worship three gods-the Father, the Mother and the Son (surah 5:73). He assumed that when Christians referred to God as “the Father”, this meant that the father was an exalted male deity who had a divine consort named Miriam. They had sexual intercourse and she conceived and gave birth to a son called Jesus. WHAT NONSENSE.
Given the pagan background of Mohammad, he erroneously assumed that the Trinity was composed of a male and female deity and that Jesus was the fruit of their sexual intercourse. What else one can expect from a man with his way of life and low level of intelligence?!
Yet the Koran states, “She said: “O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man has touched me.” He said: “So (it will be) for Allah creates what He wills. When He has decreed something, He says to it only: “Be!”-and it is.” Surah 3:47
Christians do not believe that God the Father is a male deity. They do not believe that Mary was his female consort.
He was supernaturally conceived in the womb of the Virgin Mary by the Holy Spirit:
Luke 1:31 “And behold, you will conceive in your womb, and bear a son, and you shall name Him Jesus.
32”He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High, and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His Father David; 33 and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever; and His kingdom will have no end.”
Christians believe: The Father (God), His Word (His Mind and Wisdom) and His Spirit (His soul) are three in One. One cannot imagine a Mighty God who created the earth and heaven and everything in them, has no mind or no soul. Christians believe in a Live God (has Spirit) and has a Mind with which He can create and control His creation.
He took flesh. He came in flesh.1 John 4:2
He took flesh from the Virgin Mary. He did not come from the seed of man. Mat 1:20 & Luke 1:34
It is a union with His Divinity without mingling, without confusion, and without alteration.
Jesus IS GOD, the only God.
That is what Christians believe for over 2000 years, REGARDLESS OF WHAT OTHERS SAY.

The union between the Word and the flesh, or the union between the Divine nature and the human body, is a real union that cannot be separated.
The rod of iron will glow if it is left in fire for a certain time, and the iron could burn. The iron neither lost its nature nor the fire. The iron is a solid mass with specific volume, shape and weight . The fire keeps its nature of glowing and burning. You cannot end the union between iron and fire as long as the iron is hot.
The Divine nature and the human body of Jesus Christ are united in the hypostasis of the Son of God. The new nature combines the properties of the Divine nature and the human flesh.
This shows another reason for the Divine incarnation as not only to dwell among us because of His love and mercy, but to partake of the lives of man because of His Divine love and kindness.
The second reason is the redemption and the salvation of man through accepting death in His flesh instead of man. He redeemed man from eternal punishment as man disobeyed the commandment. This shows the justice of God as well as His love.

[sword_of_truth]

I'm an atheist, but I have some quibbles, here.

At the end you said you bleieve in god but not in religion, but to be honest with you religion invented god, or religion was invented because god was assumed. everybody wants his own god and everybody thinks their god is the real god. but really if you think about it, which one is it? and if you answer this question I'm sure you said YOUR god was the real one and left out everyone else's.

But if you believe in a generic God, as Han does, this isn't an issue. It doesn't matter which God. It's just A God.

God is a myth, it doesn't exist and doesn't play any role in our life, god will answer ambious prayers, he might bloom another flower for your joy or might make you pass an exam that you studied for, but he'll never do anything unnatural because it doesn't exist.

I believe that God doesn't exist, but I wouldn't say that to a believer because they'll get all indignant about how I can't prove it. Then, maybe, they'll tell me, you're really an agnostic, ha ha ha, as if they are giving some revelation that I haven't already thought of. So, I must make it clear that I believe, but cannot be certain that there is no God. Perhaps, among atheists I can say outright that God doesn't exist and we can have an understanding that we will admit that there is a possibility that God exists, but that such a possibility is of small enough importance that it can be ignored.

you can roll around all the way you want and talk about the things that we don't know in the universe, but you'll never prove its solid existance without talking about what we don't know. The universe is so complex to understand, and having an idea that god made it all is comforting and easy believable.. but is it true? that is the real question... just because it fits all the answers it doesn't prove it..

Agreed. The fallacy of "this is the only answer I can think of, therefore it must be the only way it can happen". Basically, an argument from lack of imagination.

God evolved from an object like a wooden sculpture or a stone, into unkown undefeatible abstracts like the sun and the thunder.. and the more we know about the universe the more god seem to shrink to only fit in the unkown.. and now there's only room for an abstract god that doesn't have a shape or a location or a smell .. a god that simply exists only in our imagination..

But perhaps, we might think of the concept of God as not having "evolved", but reinvented.

At any rate, I wouldn't be too concerned about convincing deists that there is no God. I think it's a waste of time. Deists have already made it. They don't believe in any religious hocus-pocus. I think their presence is valuable, just because they serve to illustrate and argue the point that even if the design argument for God was correct, or whatever other argument, that still does very little to prove religion. God is necessary for religion to be true, but not sufficient. The "not sufficient" part is the part that religious people love to ignore, and deists serve as a potent reminder that it cannot be ignored by a rational mind.

[kenmirzz]

Hi everyone in humanity, it has been quite some times since my last posting here in FFI forum.

My belief in God is different from the Abrahamic God that most of us imagined in our mind. Actually we human cannot escape from the indoctrination of certain version of Abrahamic God who has human-like features with eyes, hands and feet. The human feeling such as arrogant, bashful and wrath are something that we attributed to this illusionary God.

Frankly speaking, I believe in the God of universe that is the "Laws and Principles" that make our existence possible. Of course we cannot just popped out of the sea without the inteference of this Laws and Principles that cause all the necessary combinations of proteins to form the One- Celled microorganism. No matter what the argument of an atheist, we cannot merely by miraculous chance to exist in the universe. There is the secret of underlying Laws and Principles behind our existence. The disagreement mostly on whether this God of the Theist intervene or not intervene in our daily life. However, the problem is not about intervention or negligence of this God in our life, it's about how we conduct our life. If we follow the good way, love one another, exercise caution on not hurting another's heart, we will surely gain the benefit of reciprocality. I am convinced of it.

According to research, a person who writes down his ambition through a gradual step by step plan will have bigger probability to achieve the aim than those who dont. Why? Therefore, when I pray to God, I am like writing my hope and aim into my mind, cause me to be aware of what I want in life and believe to achieve those objectives. Either this God is an intefering one or not, it's none of my business. There are countless secrets that human yet to divulge regarding this God of ours, The Laws and Principles that essential in our very existence.

Humanity is but one family.

[capner]

You keep barking about 'religion'. To be intelligent, you might want to read some.
Jesus said; "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man comes to the Father except by me."
Jesus healed sick people.
Jesus cured blind people.
Jesus fed 5000 people with a few fishes and a couple of pieces of bread.
Jesus raised people from the dead.
Jesus is the only man on the face of this earth who did all of this stuff, and said: "no man comes to the Father except by me."
Now, is this RELIGION that is being talked about here?
Muhammad didn't do anything like that. Neither did Buddha. And none of those hindu gods(not one of the one and one half million of them)have ever done the roll of things that Jesus did.
I find it so amazing that when many muslims quit their stupid 'religion', they become secularists---they feel that no religion has any idea about who or what GOD is.
Weird.

[Chiclets]

[kenmirzz]

You keep barking about 'religion'. To be intelligent, you might want to read some.
Jesus said; "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man comes to the Father except by me."
Jesus healed sick people.
Jesus cured blind people.
Jesus fed 5000 people with a few fishes and a couple of pieces of bread.
Jesus raised people from the dead.
Jesus is the only man on the face of this earth who did all of this stuff, and said: "no man comes to the Father except by me."
Now, is this RELIGION that is being talked about here?
Muhammad didn't do anything like that. Neither did Buddha. And none of those hindu gods(not one of the one and one half million of them)have ever done the roll of things that Jesus did.
I find it so amazing that when many muslims quit their stupid 'religion', they become secularists---they feel that no religion has any idea about who or what GOD is.
Weird.

Hi Capner. If you have nothing else to say then just buzz off. Dont you dare trying to impose your belief on me. You may want to argue that with Acharya S. Watch your language that even Jesus Christ will probably advice you to love thine enemies. I am not your enemy, so, speak mildly with me ok.
If you want to critisize Buddhism or Hinduism, please post in other website or engage in debate with someone from that field. I am no expert in those religions.

Humanity is but one family.

[SAM]

I find it so amazing that when many muslims quit their stupid 'religion', they become secularists---they feel that no religion has any idea about who or what GOD is. Weird.

That's right, they're weird, social anxiety problems, mentally retarded, mental disorder/illness, psychological condition and many other categories that requires psychiatrist intervention and mental health professionals.....

[kenmirzz]

That's right, they're weird, social anxiety problems, mentally retarded, mental disorder/illness, psychological condition and many other categories that requires psychiatrist intervention and mental health professionals.....

What a dumb response. Most of the psychiatrist and mental health professionals are themselves secularist humanist. Go study Sigmeund Freud writing and get a picture of your own self. By the way, you are already learning the "AhmadBaghat" way of reply. Kudos to you. He is successful in his Da'wah activity.

Humanity is but one family.

[Chief Chingachgook]

That's right, they're weird, social anxiety problems, mentally retarded, mental disorder/illness, psychological condition and many other categories that requires psychiatrist intervention and mental health professionals.....

What a dumb response. Most of the psychiatrist and mental health professionals are themselves secularist humanist. Go study Sigmeund Freud writing and get a picture of your own self. By the way, you are already learning the "AhmadBaghat" way of reply. Kudos to you. He is successful in his Da'wah activity.

Humanity is but one family.

Alhumdollillah-hah-hah-hah, Allah-hah-hah-hah be pleased! 70 of his 71 virgins are awaiting his homecoming in Jannah. The other virgin is on loan to Yasser Arafat (PBUH)

[Eopithecus]

Amazing that it is a marriage to a six year old that disturb some muslims, instead of the mass murder of Jews, stealing from caravans, assasinations, rape, slavery and constant warfare.

[antineoETC]

Hi everybody, i am Han, mix heritage ( persian, turkish, mongols, etc). i decided to leave islam, this cult of hate and oppression. actually, i stumbled upon this site last year but took no heed of it because i consider it as "anti islamic site'. i was a practising muslim, pray five times a day, fast, and do all the necessary islamic rituals that make me a muslim, at least, though not in the fundamentalist way. being born into not so religious family, my siblings and parents are not really practising muslims themselves. but, islam is dear to them and that is their 'truth'.

life goes on as usual, i never think of anything bad about islam or its founder. the moment i read about the atrocities about muslims, i subscribe that to his or her own ignorance of islam. the common respond in my mind or in discussion is: "they are not following true islam, if they follow, none of these things will happen." this is how a muslim is programmed and brainwash.

Regarding the highlighted above, such "devout ignorant" Muslims who GENUINELY believe that jihadis are acting unislamically are actually very dangerous in that they facilitate the Islamization of non-Muslim lands in which they have settled by helping to convince indigenous non-Muslims - especially those with a propensity for joining cults - that Islam is a "nice" and much misunderstood religion. We are in a bit of a dilemma. We don't want APPARENTLY "nice" ritualistic, Islamically dressed self-defined "Muslims" to be anything other than what they seem to be at face value. We would like to think that their apparent happiness to keep their religion in the personal ritualistic and devotional sphere is genuine. We don't want them to prove our claims about Islam by turning into rabid sharia proponents, daughter killers or human bombs. On the other hand we don't want their apparent "niceness" and "moderation" to convince the majority of our fellow non-Muslim compatriots that a growing Muslim population and Islamization of our towns is nothing to be concerned about. We all know that a devout-ignorant Muslim can become "radicalized" overnight by being informed of alleged "oppression" of their coreligionists around the world or simply by being filled in on aspect of their avowed faith of which they were ignorant.

[kenmirzz]

Regarding the highlighted above, such "devout ignorant" Muslims who GENUINELY believe that jihadis are acting unislamically are actually very dangerous in that they facilitate the Islamization of non-Muslim lands in which they have settled by helping to convince indigenous non-Muslims - especially those with a propensity for joining cults - that Islam is a "nice" and much misunderstood religion. We are in a bit of a dilemma. We don't want APPARENTLY "nice" ritualistic, Islamically dressed self-defined "Muslims" to be anything other than what they seem to be at face value. We would like to think that their apparent happiness to keep their religion in the personal ritualistic and devotional sphere is genuine. We don't want them to prove our claims about Islam by turning into rabid sharia proponents, daughter killers or human bombs. On the other hand we don't want their apparent "niceness" and "moderation" to convince the majority of our fellow non-Muslim compatriots that a growing Muslim population and Islamization of our towns is nothing to be concerned about. We all know that a devout-ignorant Muslim can become "radicalized" overnight by being informed of alleged "oppression" of their coreligionists around the world or simply by being filled in on aspect of their avowed faith of which they were ignorant.

Islam has the definite characteristic of a cult. It can rally support at a surprising fast rate by exploiting certain controversial issues of oppression against Islam committed by certain kaafir in certain countries even if it's merely unfounded rumour. However, if vice versa, no Muslims will give a heed. The devoid of empathy is alarming for Muslims. They failed to see humanity as one body that should endeavour to cooperate harmoniously for the perpetuality of our civilization. Ironically, they utilize the most modern product of this civilization only to condemn it in recipocrate.

They tend to observe the current civilization suspiciously while citing the so called "superior morality" generated by Islam. However, when the table is turned around facing them, i.e. the allowance by Islam to establish sexual relationship with female captive obtained from war outside the fold of marriage, then sell them as slaves, they are speechless. The very criticism of Muslims against the Western civilization is on the particular issue of indulgence of the West in the matter of male-female relationship. Here we have sex out of wedlock and slavery sanctioned by Quran and Sunnah.

Humanity is but one family.

[katmandu]

@ KENMIRZZ

Wauw! 'Ghenkis Kahn' pity no archaeological finds of his grave said to hold treasures (not for the treasures) but for the mystery where he is burried - disappeared after he died.

You appear to have disappeared but if not:

"the story of Virgin Mary statue weeping blood, the statue of Hindu elephant statue pouring white milk from its mouth were sufficient to attaract and strengthen "believer's faith'."

Yes stupid, and deflects on the depth of Jezus-Christ, who few understand what He represents - certainly not catholics/christians - read Professor Fraser: 'The Golden Bow' and you'll understand that Catholocisme IS the roots of all original animistic religions: ['Christ]'the King''s blood must flow for Light to return[ to earth] after winter; for the crops the grow ...."

This besides 'risen from Death' Hope for Mankind - mighty spiritual in so many ways Christ.

But you are right about every description of God by humanity - the Great God we cannot know but 'believe in'.

With Institutionalised religions out for power over millions, better not to belong to any.

[SAM]

Hello kenmirzz,

You wrote:i.e. the allowance by Islam to establish sexual relationship with female captive obtained from war outside the fold of marriage, then sell them as slaves,

What do you think that God allowed the rape of female slaves in the Old Testament. Jesus also telling you this:” [Deut 21:10 – 14]

Deuteronomy 21:10-14: "When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the LORD thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive, And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife; Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house; and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails; And she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife. And it shall be, if thou have no delight in her, then thou shalt let her go whither she will; but thou shalt not sell her at all for money, thou shalt not make merchandise of her, because thou hast humbled her."

Here is the same passage from the NIV.

DT 21:10 When you go to war against your enemies and the LORD your God delivers them into your hands and you take captives, 11 if you notice among the captives a beautiful woman and are attracted to her, you may take her as your wife. 12 Bring her into your home and have her shave her head, trim her nails 13 and put aside the clothes she was wearing when captured. After she has lived in your house and mourned her father and mother for a full month, then you may go to her and be her husband and she shall be your wife. 14 If you are not pleased with her, let her go wherever she wishes. You must not sell her or treat her as a slave, since you have dishonored her.

[Maersk]

And Muslim readers of FFi must be fascinated and intrigued to find out why the Christians did not take captive women from the tribe of Pedophile Mo? Would Mother Mary approve, SAM??

[manfred]

What do you think that God allowed the rape of female slaves in the Old Testament. Jesus also telling you this:” [Deut 21:10 – 14]

1) Deuteronomy was written many ceturies before Jesus was born.So Jesus did NOT tell anybody this. Deuteronomy is part of the Torah, not the gospel.
2) The author of that passage actually speaks out AGAINST taking slaves and using them for sex. The text is a very early beginning to establishing some basic rights to women captured in war. The law has developed a LONG way since then.
3) If you quote this you must also hold Mohammed to that rule. He did not follow it.
4) How many cases of Jews or Christians can you show us where they hold a sex slave and try to justify this using religion???

Here is SAM trying a to quoque fallacy, and can't even get that right...

[antineoETC]

Regarding the highlighted above, such "devout ignorant" Muslims who GENUINELY believe that jihadis are acting unislamically are actually very dangerous in that they facilitate the Islamization of non-Muslim lands in which they have settled by helping to convince indigenous non-Muslims - especially those with a propensity for joining cults - that Islam is a "nice" and much misunderstood religion. We are in a bit of a dilemma. We don't want APPARENTLY "nice" ritualistic, Islamically dressed self-defined "Muslims" to be anything other than what they seem to be at face value. We would like to think that their apparent happiness to keep their religion in the personal ritualistic and devotional sphere is genuine. We don't want them to prove our claims about Islam by turning into rabid sharia proponents, daughter killers or human bombs. On the other hand we don't want their apparent "niceness" and "moderation" to convince the majority of our fellow non-Muslim compatriots that a growing Muslim population and Islamization of our towns is nothing to be concerned about. We all know that a devout-ignorant Muslim can become "radicalized" overnight by being informed of alleged "oppression" of their coreligionists around the world or simply by being filled in on aspect of their avowed faith of which they were ignorant.

And there is a very good article on the whole "moderate" vs "extremist" issue OVER HERE if you haven't already found it.

The author of the article writes:

Unless they see the light of freedom, one day they may return to the true Islam and learn that Allah created their brains to guide them to His path, not to question His wisdom.

And even if they do not "return to the true Islam" they will:

> by their "moderation" help convince the "host" community that Islam can be anything someone who calls themselves a "Muslim" wants it to be - thereby putting the hosts "off their guard" and facilitating the Islamization of the lands in which they have settled

> implant a core "Muslim" identity in any children they have who may themselves become "extremists" after exposure to some "trigger" or other

We do have a real dilemma here. What if a self-proclaimed "Muslim" who GENUINELY believes Islam is all sweetness and light is convinced by FFI that it is nothing of the sort and, rather than renouncing the religion in disgust (as Ali Sina insists most will), decides to make up for their hitherto Koranically-defined inadequate practice of Islam by becoming a terrorist?