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Thanks to the internet, I'm an apostate now

PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 8:19 am
by Nazzim ibn Abu Talib
This testimony is going to be a bit longer, so please be patient.

I was born in a moderate muslim family in India. I started praying and fasting when I was 7. My parents were nice persons and always talked about how good and peaceful Islam is and I in turn came to connect virtue with religion.

My first doubt over Islam came when I was 8. My parents were out for a visit to a nearby town and since my school was over earlier that day I went to a friend’s house (they were Hindu). My friend had a sister who was 16-17 at that time. She was really curious about Islam and kept showering me with questions about the religious practices. Then she asked if she does good deeds will she go to heaven even though she isn’t a Muslim. At that time my concept of heaven was it was the destination of good people. So I answered “Yes, of course!”. When I was back at home I related the whole incident to my mother who told me she wouldn’t go to heaven because she is a kafir. This distorted logic sure gave me something to ponder over, but I was young and I forgot the incident in a week or two. So there’s an us vs them?

My second revelation was when I was 9. By now I had an understanding that there are kuffar and there are believers. At that time a religious riot between Hindu and Muslims broke out over the three Muslim brothers killing a Hindu trader over business deals. These riots are nothing uncommon in India, by the age of 15 I had seen 7 of them. But this riot made me ask my mother about the first and the most violent riot that my family faced shortly after I was born that robbed us of our property and land. It was a taboo topic but my mother finally told me. That my father had been hit on his head and leg with iron rods and he’d have lost his leg had it not been for a Hindu who took him to a Hindu doctor, portrayed my father as his brother and thanks to him, my father still walks. So these Kafirs can be good too?

The third eye opener was when I was 11. I was visiting my ancestral village when a friend of mine triumphantly related the story of how they razed down a Wahhabi mosque. The large majority in my village are Barelvi and they term Wahhabis as Gol-topi. There’re also other types of social repercussions for being Wahhabi in a Barelvi dominated area. I had been told by my mom that these Wahhabi are evil but I still couldn’t believe that muslims can take part in razing a sacred mosque. So there are believers who can be as bad as the Kafirs?

I had my first interaction with internet at 13. This was the beginning of the actual apostasy within me. I signed up on a forum to practise English. A large majority on there were Arabs and Turks who posted religious topics glorifying Islam. But there was one guy from Turkey, an atheist, who constantly debunked their mythical beliefs WITH support from Qur’an and hadith. As is the wont with the regular muslims, they never countered him with valid arguments but rather just the rote ones I still keep seeing “This was the norm of those days” or “You’re taking it out of context”. So I wrote to this Turkish guy personally, my first private message was a mere personal attack than logic. He didn’t retort, he answered coolly. After a few message exchanges we talked on MSN, not just religion but also about other aspects of life. I’m thankful to Ugur (that is his name) for opening my eyes. This continued for 3 years as I evolved and reformed.

The second person who helped me was a Jew living in UK. His responses on forum were not as mild as Ugur’s. But he blasted Islam WITH valid arguments. I expected that of course because he was a Jew. At this point I wasn’t actually apostatizing but just like those western apologists, talking about a moderate, peaceful Islam. But I still viewed Jews as a threat to Islam and world! Yes, two of my early teachers were neo Nazis who had indoctrinated in me a sense of Aryan supremacy. And when your family says Jews are evil and killing Palestinians, it doesn’t help either. But also around this time I came to know a girl from US on another social networking site. We got sort of romantically involved, but she was one of those young westerners who, in their rebellious nature, think Christianity is the utmost evil and look for spirituality elsewhere. She embraced Judaism, though I doubt she learnt much of it. But I did. When she converted I tried to prove Judaism is evil, I tried to be logical and researched about Judaism and then the political landscape of the Palestine problem. This made me realize you don’t clap with one hand, Zionists aren’t the only one to blame. And my research also unearthed the story of an Arab man in Israeli cabinet refusing to sing the national anthem. I was shocked to know that Jews even allowed a muslim in the cabinet! (I later came to know, this particular man, Salah Tarif was a Druze not a Muslim, but the Israeli cabinet did get a Muslim member)

But other points aside, this Jew on the forum once pointed to FFI, I visited the site and labelled it outright Islamophobic but I kept returning in hope of refuting the claims. In the next two years that followed I could no more justify my religion of “peace”. My logic had been shattered. For some time I tried to justify Islam to my non-muslim friends by preaching that no logic need be involved in religion. You can’t prove God logically/scientifically but you can’t refute God. You just have to trust. I was just trying to cling on to the last straw. I knew it was blatant hypocrisy but you must acknowledge that the idea of ETERNAL hellfire wasn't very alluring. When people come out of their distorted Utopia, they feel helpless in real world.

I finally gave it up all around 17-18. I still keep pretending that I am a devout Muslim as I have no intention either to die/have my education stopped in midway/hurt my parents. I plan to finish my education and move to Eastern Europe, the Slavic culture calls me!

Thanks for reading this tiringly long testimony :)

Re: Thanks to the internet, I'm an apostate now

PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 9:29 am
by manfred
That was quite some testimony. I found your honesty and openness very moving.

It is nice to see you on the forum.

Re: Thanks to the internet, I'm an apostate now

PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 9:50 am
by pr126
Thank you for sharing your story.

If you intend to go to eastern Europe is fine, but avoid the Balkans. (Former Yugoslavia, Albania.)

Hope to see you around.

Re: Thanks to the internet, I'm an apostate now

PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 10:52 am
by Nazzim ibn Abu Talib
pr126 wrote:Thank you for sharing your story.

If you intend to go to eastern Europe is fine, but avoid the Balkans. (Former Yugoslavia, Albania.)

Hope to see you around.


thank you :) I intended to go to either Croatia (I hear they're a bit racist) or Poland (learning Polish is mind bogglingly difficult :cry: )

I will surely stick on to here. When my semester exams are over for the term and I get some holiday I intend to write a small booklet on helping potential apostates shake up the last shackles of Islam within them, it will help myself too. I'll be seeking the help of you guys :heartbeat:

Re: Thanks to the internet, I'm an apostate now

PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 11:56 am
by pr126
Nazzim ibn Abu Talib wrote:
pr126 wrote:Thank you for sharing your story.

If you intend to go to eastern Europe is fine, but avoid the Balkans. (Former Yugoslavia, Albania.)

Hope to see you around.


thank you :) I intended to go to either Croatia (I hear they're a bit racist) or Poland (learning Polish is mind bogglingly difficult :cry: )

I will surely stick on to here. When my semester exams are over for the term and I get some holiday I intend to write a small booklet on helping potential apostates shake up the last shackles of Islam within them, it will help myself too. I'll be seeking the help of you guys :heartbeat:

Poland is still fine (for now). Croatia is the Balkans. Avoid.

Re: Thanks to the internet, I'm an apostate now

PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 8:37 am
by enceladus
Hi Nazzim! That's a very good testimony - good on you for leaving Islam!
I look forward to seeing your contributions in the forums here.

Interesting to hear you mention the Wahhabis. I have seen many articles around the web saying that of all the branches of Islam, the Wahhabi are the most ruthless. I have also heard that the Wahhabis are putting big money into building mosques and madrassas in Pakistan (and elsewhere too, I think).

For a very long time, I have dearly wanted to be able to undermine the Wahhabi madrassas and mosques in Pakistan, but it's pretty much impossible to do from a distance. They seem to be the ones (almost exclusively) that the Taliban use to brainwash their recruits.

It would be wonderful if a young person from such a madrassa popped into the forum here, found that we were telling the truth about Islam, and told us that he was determined to spread the truth far and wide, in his madrassa and the others.

I am convinced that it is at the madrassa level that Islam is at its most vulnerable, so I am really keen to do whatever I can to undermine them - especially the Wahhabi ones.

One thing I was wondering about..... I was curious as to the reason that you have "abu Talib" in your nickname. Any particular reason for that?
- enceladus

Re: Thanks to the internet, I'm an apostate now

PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 8:46 am
by kaimana1
enceladus wrote:Hi Nazzim! That's a very good testimony - good on you for leaving Islam!
I look forward to seeing your contributions in the forums here.

Interesting to hear you mention the Wahhabis. I have seen many articles around the web saying that of all the branches of Islam, the Wahhabi are the most ruthless. I have also heard that the Wahhabis are putting big money into building mosques and madrassas in Pakistan (and elsewhere too, I think).

For a very long time, I have dearly wanted to be able to undermine the Wahhabi madrassas and mosques in Pakistan, but it's pretty much impossible to do from a distance. They seem to be the ones (almost exclusively) that the Taliban use to brainwash their recruits.

It would be wonderful if a young person from such a madrassa popped into the forum here, found that we were telling the truth about Islam, and told us that he was determined to spread the truth far and wide, in his madrassa and the others.

I am convinced that it is at the madrassa level that Islam is at its most vulnerable, so I am really keen to do whatever I can to undermine them - especially the Wahhabi ones.

One thing I was wondering about..... I was curious as to the reason that you have "abu Talib" in your nickname. Any particular reason for that?
- enceladus


Im sure you are aware that zakir naik is funded by wahhabis- hes definately a salafi

Re: Thanks to the internet, I'm an apostate now

PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 8:48 am
by kaimana1
Great testimony nazim!

welcome to FFI

Re: Thanks to the internet, I'm an apostate now

PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 9:30 am
by enceladus
kaimana1 wrote:
Im sure you are aware that zakir naik is funded by wahhabis- hes definately a salafi


Hi -
No, I wasn't aware of that, but it doesn't surprise me at all (that he's Wahhabi-funded).

For all the (deserved) attention that Pakistan gets when it comes to terrorism, the Saudis are a really big and nasty nest of vipers. Unsurprising, of course, given that's where the cult originated.
- enceladus

Re: Thanks to the internet, I'm an apostate now

PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 4:16 pm
by Nazzim ibn Abu Talib
pr126 wrote:Poland is still fine (for now). Croatia is the Balkans. Avoid.


Well I've got an unhealthy obsession for Marshal Tito and his Yugoslavia, not that I'm a commie.

enceladus wrote:Hi Nazzim! That's a very good testimony - good on you for leaving Islam!
I look forward to seeing your contributions in the forums here.

Interesting to hear you mention the Wahhabis. I have seen many articles around the web saying that of all the branches of Islam, the Wahhabi are the most ruthless. I have also heard that the Wahhabis are putting big money into building mosques and madrassas in Pakistan (and elsewhere too, I think).

For a very long time, I have dearly wanted to be able to undermine the Wahhabi madrassas and mosques in Pakistan, but it's pretty much impossible to do from a distance. They seem to be the ones (almost exclusively) that the Taliban use to brainwash their recruits.

It would be wonderful if a young person from such a madrassa popped into the forum here, found that we were telling the truth about Islam, and told us that he was determined to spread the truth far and wide, in his madrassa and the others.

I am convinced that it is at the madrassa level that Islam is at its most vulnerable, so I am really keen to do whatever I can to undermine them - especially the Wahhabi ones.

One thing I was wondering about..... I was curious as to the reason that you have "abu Talib" in your nickname. Any particular reason for that?
- enceladus


Thank you :)

You're right, madrassa is the right place to penetrate, but the absolute hostility of muslims makes it very dangerous and traditional madrassas (which are about 90%) have no computers. A few do, but no internet, just for DTP work or some basic computer stuff. Physical access to the students and influencing then is very difficult, but since my dad is a patron of two or three of them I might get cosy with the kids in there and sow some seeds of doubt. After all that's all we got to do, doubts lead to enlightenment. I'd be a bit careful with this endeavor though, if muslims have got their license of taqiyaa, I've got mine :p

My nick? Well "Nazzim" is a tribute to the brave Maldivian guy who stood up in Zakir Naik's brainwash events and declared apostasy in front of 11K strong army of Allah. Abu Talib was promised the best place in hell, the top most part where he'd be the one to feel the least of the tortures. It signifies that even if Mohammed's hell existed Nazzim would go to this "moderate" hell whereas the hypocrite "moderate" muslim apologists would rot in worst hell because they have deviated from Muhammad's path of pure violence. :whistling: oops too long an explanation.

Re: Thanks to the internet, I'm an apostate now

PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 5:32 pm
by Nazzim ibn Abu Talib
It is my personal opinion, but I feel that nomads living in harsh conditions tend to be toughened and know less of humane ways, Muhammad and Genghis Khan would be two good examples. When Islam spread to other parts where people knew of kindness and peace they blended it in their own flavors and gave Islam a more moderate face despite having the same savage core ideologies.

Now ibn Abd Al Wahhab was another Arab who saw this acceptance of Muslims of non-Muslim peaceful ideologies as threatening Islam's spread. You see even his teachers didn't approve of his arrogant manners. With some research I think it could be established this guy also had some severe mental disturbances like Muhammad.

Who said separation of power and state isn't possible in Islamic state? Wahhab made a pact with ibn Saud and it continues. Most ulemas in KSA are from his descendents while Saud's family holds political reins. For the king's family, the regular Islamic rules are waived. Khuswant Singh, a prolific Indian writer says in one of his books that he once was in KSA and paying a visit to a Saudi prince. They drank together and discussed some politics and on his way back Singh learned that the next day this same prince would be "punishing" another person charged of drinking alcohol. Another news that caught my attention was that of a Saudi prince who sodomized and killed his servant (slave?) during a stay in UK. It was suggested he might even have a homosexual relationship, but the things were hushed as always.

And Taliban as well as Zakir Naik are funded by Saudi Salafists. Pakistan is training ground for Jihadists because

1.Arabs in oil rich regions are too rich. How can they blow themselves up when the hire their musilm brothers from Indian subcontinent for doing their manual labor!
2.Pakistan is now the 2nd largest muslim country after Indonesia with a large pop growth rate.
3.The Salafists are finding good footholds in Pakistan.

Re: Thanks to the internet, I'm an apostate now

PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 6:42 pm
by paxi christi
Nazzim ibn Abu Talib, welcome.

and i hope you start to breath fresh life into your life after leaving islam.

very brave to do what you have done.i tip my hat to you. :)

all the very best.and get stuck into the other threads.its all inclusive. :wink:

Re: Thanks to the internet, I'm an apostate now

PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 10:00 pm
by enceladus
Nazzim ibn Abu Talib wrote:Thank you :)


You're welcome!

Nazzim ibn Abu Talib wrote:(snip)
Physical access to the students and influencing then is very difficult, but since my dad is a patron of two or three of them I might get cosy with the kids in there and sow some seeds of doubt.
(snip)


Interesting! If it is possible to do this (but I want you to stay very safe), then that would indeed be good. My sig has a couple of threads that I believe are very useful in rebutting Islam.
Showing those to a madrassa child would be a very good start.

Somehow, we need to convince them - to show them that asking questions (and having critical thinking) is good.. I present one of my favourite quotes from Buddha -

"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if
I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense."
- Buddha

An awesome quote. He is saying "don't just believe stuff because of who is saying it. Always have your "critical thinking" filters in place."

- enceladus

Re: Thanks to the internet, I'm an apostate now

PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 7:56 pm
by Ibn Rushd
Wow. :ohmy:

I'm totally blown away by your personal growth. I wish you well in your endeavours.

Have you considered immigrating to Canada?

Re: Thanks to the internet, I'm an apostate now

PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 2:41 pm
by Ozes
Great testimony, thanks for sharing

Re: Thanks to the internet, I'm an apostate now

PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 10:51 pm
by Nazzim ibn Abu Talib
Ibn Rushd wrote:Wow. :ohmy:

I'm totally blown away by your personal growth. I wish you well in your endeavours.

Have you considered immigrating to Canada?


Yeah, but Canada is pretty cold all round the year :(

Re: Thanks to the internet, I'm an apostate now

PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 2:38 am
by Ibn Rushd
Nazzim ibn Abu Talib wrote:Yeah, but Canada is pretty cold all round the year :(


In the summer we can get up to 40C in some places, others get low 30s.

Re: Thanks to the internet, I'm an apostate now

PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 6:36 pm
by capner
Don't worry about the cold. The coat of mosquitoes you'll be wearing will keep you from feeling the cold.