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Re: I'm living in hell.Please help me.

PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 1:03 am
by Ram
Vesta wrote:Hi everyone.
I am a 19 year old girl living in Middle east.I used to be a faithful Shiite Muslim. I defended Islam with all my strength.I wanted others to see the truth of Islam but suddenly it was me who started to see things differently.as soon as i finished school i started to doubt in many things.when i started university everything worsened.With every new word that i read i lose a part of my faith.

I wasn't trying to find some excuse not to wear Hijab or go to parties.My belief was shaken by more fundamental things.I began to feel that many excuses that are offered for some things in Islam are shallow and i would not have accepted them if they were from another group.So suddenly i woke up and with a panicked.Until then i have considered myself an opened minded Muslim.But then i looked at myself and saw that i am losing my faith completely.I was frantic and tried to regain my faith with extreme forms of prayer but that didn't answer.Even speaking of Islam was sickening for me.I felt very guilty.I felt that what ever i am feeling are because of my sins.

since then i am feeling worse and worse.Some times i feel depressed other times aggressive and angry.I feel that i should gave up on my faith but i feel so lost and terrified.Some times i am sure that some thing will happen to me for the way i am feeling.Some times i think what if all the conclusions i have made are all wrong and i am going to the wrong way?

My parents though educated fiercely believe in political Islam. I can't leave them and live some where else.I can't tell them how i feel.If i tell them that i can't be a Muslim anymore there would be no university no Internet no e books any more.Probably they will force me to marry some GOOD MAN.It's not that they are cruel.They just want me to go to heaven instead of hell and they think that God's love is above any love.I don't want to hurt them and if i turn my back to Islam it will

Welcome Vesta. To learn the truth is glorious. You are on a right track. Be patient. Inform yourself as much as possible. You are not loosing faith, what you are loosing is the myths you have been taught. You were made to believe that the myths of Shiite Islam are facts. You are finding out that myths are not facts, they are just beliefs. So do not despair. Give yourself time.

Right now, keep your thoughts to yourself. Get education. When you will be independent are able to be on your own you can decide what to do. If possible, go to a Western country for education. You can start working on it right away.

Re: I'm living in hell.Please help me.

PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 1:20 pm
by Trouper
I enjoyed your posts, Eagle. :)

Ram wrote:Are you joking or being a moron? Why do you say such non-sense?


I am disheartened by your boorish behavior. You act like you know more than anyone. Ram, your specialty is only hatred towards Islam and Muslims. Period.

Ram wrote:There are no Muslim countries? Saudi Arabia is not a Muslim country? What about Pakistan? Will you go to any Muslim country, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia, for example, and say to them that they are not Muslim countries?


Simple questions:
What do you mean by Muslim countries?
How do you classify a country as Muslim or non-Muslim?
What is Islam?
Who are Muslims?

Ram wrote:Welcome Vesta. To learn the truth is glorious. You are on a right track. Be patient. Inform yourself as much as possible. You are not loosing faith, what you are loosing is the myths you have been taught. You were made to believe that the myths of Shiite Islam are facts.You are finding out that myths are not facts, they are just beliefs. So do not despair. Give yourself time.

Right now, keep your thoughts to yourself. Get education. When you will be independent are able to be on your own you can decide what to do. If possible, go to a Western country for education. You can start working on it right away.


There is no Shiite Islam. Shiite is Shiite and Islam is Islam-two different things.

Re: I'm living in hell.Please help me.

PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 3:20 pm
by Sten
Trouper wrote:There is no Shiite Islam. Shiite is Shiite and Islam is Islam-two different things.


The Shiites would disagree.

Re: I'm living in hell.Please help me.

PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 4:04 pm
by Trouper
Sten wrote:
Trouper wrote:There is no Shiite Islam. Shiite is Shiite and Islam is Islam-two different things.

The Shiites would disagree.


Howdy Sten!

Shiite, Sunni, or any cult followers do not belong to Islam. Islam is only Islam. The followers of Islam are called Muslims. It is as simple as 1+1=2. Most of the cult followers know it, but they cant get out of the superstition. If they disagree, so what! Their disagreement wouldn't make them right.

Shiite republic of Iran, not Islamic republic of Iran. capiche?

Re: I'm living in hell.Please help me.

PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 5:55 pm
by ringmaster
Trouper wrote:
Sten wrote:
Trouper wrote:There is no Shiite Islam. Shiite is Shiite and Islam is Islam-two different things.

The Shiites would disagree.


Howdy Sten!

Shiite, Sunni, or any cult followers do not belong to Islam. Islam is only Islam. The followers of Islam are called Muslims. It is as simple as 1+1=2. Most of the cult followers know it, but they cant get out of the superstition. If they disagree, so what! Their disagreement wouldn't make them right.

Shiite republic of Iran, not Islamic republic of Iran. capiche?



So here we have another Mesmorial?

Here we have a guy who says that substantially all muslims in this world are guilty of shirk?

Re: I'm living in hell.Please help me.

PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 6:52 pm
by Ram
Trouper wrote:I am disheartened by your boorish behavior. You act like you know more than anyone. Ram, your specialty is only hatred towards Islam and Muslims. Period.

I know about Muslims and Islam more than you think. I was born in Sindh. I have lived with Muslims. I am the victim of Muslim intolerance. I can trace my roots in Sindh and Baluchistan for generations. Yet we had to leave our homeland because my family is not Muslim.

Look at what is happening to Christians in Egypt and Pakistan. Their churches are burned and they are killed practically every week. Even Muslims don't tolerate other Muslims, Sunnis and Shias are killing each other. Everyweek a church is burned in Indonesia, a biggest Muslim country. Christians are thrown in jail in Saudi Arabia if thet hold prayer meetings.

Shias say that they are Muslims. What is your problem if Shias claim to be Muslims. Shais say that Sunnis are not Muslims. Why? Why not live and let live. Why should you have a problem if Shias say that they are Muslims?

Re: I'm living in hell.Please help me.

PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 6:57 pm
by Ram
Trouper wrote:Simple questions:
What do you mean by Muslim countries?
How do you classify a country as Muslim or non-Muslim?
What is Islam?
Who are Muslims?

You know the answers but let me amuse you.
Simple answers for you:
Muslims country is where Muslims are in majority.
The countries where Muslims are not in majority.
Islam is Evil Cult, read my signature.
Muslims are who emulate the Pedophile Prophet Muhammad and worship Satan whom they call Allah.

Re: I'm living in hell.Please help me.

PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 5:06 am
by Sten
Trouper wrote:
Sten wrote:
Trouper wrote:There is no Shiite Islam. Shiite is Shiite and Islam is Islam-two different things.

The Shiites would disagree.


Howdy Sten!

Shiite, Sunni, or any cult followers do not belong to Islam. Islam is only Islam. The followers of Islam are called Muslims. It is as simple as 1+1=2. Most of the cult followers know it, but they cant get out of the superstition. If they disagree, so what! Their disagreement wouldn't make them right.

Shiite republic of Iran, not Islamic republic of Iran. capiche?


You are wrong. Saying that Shiites and Sunnis do not belong to Islam is like saying Catholics and Pentecostals do not belong to Christianity. If you believe in a religion and identify yourself as a member, you are a member of that religion. Sunni, Shiite, Ahmadiyya, Sufi, they all believe the Quran and Hadith so they are all Islam.

Re: I'm living in hell.Please help me.

PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 10:06 am
by Trouper
Ram wrote:I know about Muslims and Islam more than you think.


How do you know what I think?

Ram wrote:Look at what is happening to Christians in Egypt and Pakistan. Their churches are burned and they are killed practically every week. Everyweek a church is burned in Indonesia, a biggest Muslim country. Christians are thrown in jail in Saudi Arabia if thet hold prayer meetings.


Please don't talk about Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia does not represent Islam at all. It represents extremist Wahhabism. Islam does not permit extremism or anything even close to it. Besides, the political system of Saudi Arabia is not in accordance to Islam. Islam supports democracy, not dictatorship. If Saudi Arabia were a Muslim country, it would permit non-Muslim to enter the city of Makkah and Medina, it would allow people of diverse faith to build their worship places, it would ensure complete freedom of religion, and it would give preference to Islam, not its barbaric Arab culture.

Ram wrote:Even Muslims don't tolerate other Muslims, Sunnis and Shias are killing each other.


Sunnis killing Shias; Shias killing Sunnis. Not Muslims killing Muslims.

Ram wrote:Shias say that they are Muslims. What is your problem if Shias claim to be Muslims. Shais say that Sunnis are not Muslims. Why? Why not live and let live.


Why do you have so much trouble understanding this simple calculation, 1+1=2? Would you call a Hindu Muslim? Is there a Hindu Islam? Or a Islam Christianity? Christian Muslim? Hindu Buddhist? Buddhist Hindu?

Ram wrote:Why should you have a problem if Shias say that they are Muslims?



Ram, do you honestly not know why should we have a problem?

In case you don't know, we have abundant problems calling a Shia or a Sunni Muslim, because the propthet of Islam was neither a Shia nor Sunni. The shia flagellation (Zanjeer-ritual) during the day of ashura, mut'ta (Temporary marriage), taqqiya and sunni misyar (Traveller's marriage), superstition, excessive adoration of prophets, believing Prophet Mohammad to be infallible are not part of Islam. When these people of awkward ritual claim themselves Muslim, we end up being labeled as them.

Re: I'm living in hell.Please help me.

PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 10:23 am
by Trouper
Ram wrote:Muslims country is where Muslims are in majority.


Muslim country is where Islamic law is implemented. Number of Muslims is immaterial.

Ram wrote:Islam is Evil Cult, read my signature.
Muslims are who emulate the Pedophile Prophet Muhammad and worship Satan whom they call Allah.


Wah wah! Ram, you really have amused me. Indeed! you know Islam more than anyone on the face of the earth.

Re: I'm living in hell.Please help me.

PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 10:35 am
by Trouper
Sten wrote:You are wrong.


Ok. Prove me wrong.

Sten wrote:Saying that Shiites and Sunnis do not belong to Islam is like saying Catholics and Pentecostals do not belong to Christianity. If you believe in a religion and identify yourself as a member, you are a member of that religion. Sunni, Shiite, Ahmadiyya, Sufi, they all believe the Quran and Hadith so they are all Islam.


Islam is not Christianity. Islam has no denominations. Islam does not recognize Shia, Sunni, Ahmadiyya, Nation of Islam, Akhbari, Abadites, Kharijites, Wahhabi, Izmaleita, Mahmoud Pasikhani, Usuli, Qadariyya, Ibadi, Druze and so on. If they believe in the Qur'an and Hadith, they must call themselves Muslims without prefixes and suffixes.

Qur'an 5:3-This day, I have perfected your religion for you, completed My Favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion.

Re: I'm living in hell.Please help me.

PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:14 am
by Ram
Trouper wrote:Please don't talk about Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia does not represent Islam at all. It represents extremist Wahhabism. Islam does not permit extremism or anything even close to it. Besides, the political system of Saudi Arabia is not in accordance to Islam. Islam supports democracy, not dictatorship. If Saudi Arabia were a Muslim country, it would permit non-Muslim to enter the city of Makkah and Medina, it would allow people of diverse faith to build their worship places, it would ensure complete freedom of religion, and it would give preference to Islam, not its barbaric Arab culture.

Saudi Arabia is where Islam originated. Now you are saying that Saudi Arabia does not represent Islam. Saudis say that they are true Muslims. So should we believe?

If Islam supports democracy, which Muslim country is democratic, I like to know. Which Muslim majority country gives non-Muslims equal religious and political rights? Can you name one?

Re: I'm living in hell.Please help me.

PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 6:12 am
by Sten
Trouper wrote:Islam is not Christianity. Islam has no denominations. Islam does not recognize Shia, Sunni, Ahmadiyya, Nation of Islam, Akhbari, Abadites, Kharijites, Wahhabi, Izmaleita, Mahmoud Pasikhani, Usuli, Qadariyya, Ibadi, Druze and so on. If they believe in the Qur'an and Hadith, they must call themselves Muslims without prefixes and suffixes.

Qur'an 5:3-This day, I have perfected your religion for you, completed My Favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion.


Christianity isn't supposed to have denominations either. The thing about sects is, every single one thinks that they are the only correct one. Every sect thinks that all the other sects are heretical. Every sect thinks that their particular interpretation of the Bible/Quran is the right one. Claiming that some people are Muslim and some people are not because of the sects they align themselves with, is nothing more than a no true scotsman fallacy.

Re: I'm living in hell.Please help me.

PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 3:53 pm
by ringmaster
Sten wrote:...........Christianity isn't supposed to have denominations either. The thing about sects is, every single one thinks that they are the only correct one. Every sect thinks that all the other sects are heretical. Every sect thinks that their particular interpretation of the Bible/Quran is the right one. Claiming that some people are Muslim and some people are not because of the sects they align themselves with, is nothing more than a no true scotsman fallacy.




Absolutely true.

An acquaintance of mine (a former Arab muslim who has become Christian) has an interesting outlook. When I first knew him, I asked him, out of curiousity, what denomination he followed. His answer was very straight forward. He replied "there is only one Jesus". From his perspective, a Protestant or Catholic who says his denomination is better than the other is not really a Christian. He goes to any church he wants. He keeps his faith to himself,, and does not push it on others. I respect him for that. He and I discuss the teachings of islam more than anything else (I am not really a Christian anyway). As an Arabic speaker, he is a fountain of information. I have learned a lot from him.

Living in Colombia as I do now, I have had some interesting conversations with the local priest on this theme. When I made the foregoing point to him, he looked at me for a moment, and basically said that he could not disagree with it.

In terms of the tendency not to proselytize, I have noticed that in the Sikhs I have known in my life too. Our daughter married one (in a civil cermeony). She asked his family if they wanted her to become Sikh. They were perfectly content for her to be (in their words), a "good Christian". Actually, culturally, having been born in Canada, he is culturally more Canadian than Indian anyway. Sikhs, with rare exceptions, tend to blend (unlike muslims) into their new societies very well.

Re: I'm living in hell.Please help me.

PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 8:42 am
by Sten
ringmaster wrote:Sikhs, with rare exceptions, tend to blend (unlike muslims) into their new societies very well.


Yes they do, and at the same time they manage to preserve their traditions and unique methods of grooming and appearance. The Sikhs manage to have their cake and eat it too in regards to integration, so why do people from certain other religions find it so difficult?

Re: I'm living in hell.Please help me.

PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 3:17 pm
by Ram
Sten wrote:
ringmaster wrote:Sikhs, with rare exceptions, tend to blend (unlike muslims) into their new societies very well.

Yes they do, and at the same time they manage to preserve their traditions and unique methods of grooming and appearance. The Sikhs manage to have their cake and eat it too in regards to integration, so why do people from certain other religions find it so difficult?

Not only Sikhs, Jews, Buddhists, even Jains, integrate very well - they all enrich the societies they live in. But Muslims, on the contrary, create only discord. In Canada, Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists etc. will join in Christmas celebrations in their own way. They will have Christmas tree in their houses and exchange greetings etc.

Re: I'm living in hell.Please help me.

PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 6:27 pm
by ringmaster
Sten wrote:

Yes they do, and at the same time they manage to preserve their traditions and unique methods of grooming and appearance. The Sikhs manage to have their cake and eat it too in regards to integration, so why do people from certain other religions find it so difficult?


Not to mention, that in spite of their small numbers (only about 25 million world wide), Sikhs have been instrumental (crucial actually) in having prevented the muslims from conquering the Indian sub-continent in its entirety. They make up a disproportionate number (relative to their population) of officers in the Indian Army, and have performed magnificently in all of India’s wars against Pukeistan, all of which Pukeistan started, and all of which India won.

Not only that, in two world wars they were excellent soldiers who served on the Allied side. You should google “Sikh Victoria Cross recipients”.

People tend to like them wherever they go. For example, in Italy they have a group there who came to work in Italy’s dairy industry to make up for a manpower shortage the Italians had. They and they Italians get along very well.

There is even a group of Sikhs in Argentina, who over the years have blended in very well.

Ram wrote:….
Not only Sikhs, Jews, Buddhists, even Jains, integrate very well - they all enrich the societies they live in. But Muslims, on the contrary, create only discord. In Canada, Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists etc. will join in Christmas celebrations in their own way. They will have Christmas tree in their houses and exchange greetings etc.



Yes Ram…you are absolutely correct. It is also entirely in accord with my own personal experience.

That, for me personally, brings up some recent news in our own family. Not only has our Canadian daughter been married to a Sikh for some time, it seems that our Canadian son has taken a romantic interest in a Canadian-born (her family is originally from Fiji) Hindu girl. From what I can see, the feelings of romantic interest are mutual. So it is quite possible that more grandchildren of (part) Indian descent are on the way. Time will tell.

Re: I'm living in hell.Please help me.

PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:16 am
by Ibn Rushd
You should post more info about South America!!! :whistling:

Very interesting family history you have there.

Re: I'm living in hell.Please help me.

PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 5:21 am
by ringmaster
Ibn Rushd wrote:You should post more info about South America!!! :whistling:

Very interesting family history you have there.



We are heading back to Canada in mid April. I still file a tax return there.

Check your PM.

Re: I'm living in hell.Please help me.

PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 6:26 am
by Trouper
Ram wrote:Saudi Arabia is where Islam originated. Now you are saying that Saudi Arabia does not represent Islam. Saudis say that they are true Muslims. So should we believe?

Saudi Arabia has got nothing to do with the origination of Islam. The kingdom of Saudi Arabia was founded by Ibn Saud in 1932. Islam came to Arabia in 610. Besides, Islam wasn't founded by Muhammad. It came to Arabia through him. Islam existed since time immemorial. The founder of this religion is God, not any human being. Restricting non Muslims from entering into the city of Makkah and Madina is a law of Saudi Arabia, not of Islam.

Ram wrote:If Islam supports democracy, which Muslim country is democratic, I like to know.

I indited earlier that there are no Muslim countries.

Ram wrote:Which Muslim majority country gives non-Muslims equal religious and political rights? Can you name one?

Muslim majority country (Not Muslim country), Bangladesh is somewhat close to giving equal religious and political rights to non-Muslims.