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Please Help!

PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2016 9:52 am
by dionysus
Hello everyone, I'm new to the forum. I am an apostate from Pakistan. I renounced Mohammadanism a few years back. I'm Pro-Western, Pro-American a forward looking man.
Cut it short, this Ramazan, when my mom saw that I have completely deviated from the religion, she intensified her efforts in making me a true Muslim by praying all the time for me and doing wazifas. I'm becoming weak. Starting this Ramazan, unconsciously I find myself of the time when Muslims were superpower. When Muslims defeated the then superpowers like the Byzantine and Persian empire. I'm obsessively thinking about these things, these notions which one of my teacher used to tell me, who used telepathy to make me believe in him.

1- West has implemented all the golden principles of Islam and has got tremendous success, and Muslims have left those golden principles, thus Muslims are facing turmoil all over. Those golden principles are like the importance of education, women property rights, bringing an end to racism declaring whites have no superiority over blacks or Arabs have no superiority over Non-Arabs; emphasis on cleanliness in surroundings and personal hygiene;

2- A famous story goes by: A man visited Arab countries and Western countries. Upon finishing his journey, he told people that he only saw Muslims in Arab countries, but no Islam. But in West, I only saw Islam, but no Muslims.

3- Muslims often quote Michael Hart, who was a Christian, declared Muhammad as the greatest human being ever lived.

4- One must acknowledge Muhammad's military skills, his vision etc.

Not just these thoughts, but several other thoughts and notions are haunting me.

I'm unconsciously feeling that I should now give up and embrace Islam. I'm still scared to share all my fears with you people. I'm afraid of persecution. I'm using a VPN software, I don't know will it be helpful or not in hiding my identity.


Please help, I don't want to go back to the blood-thirsty religion.....

Re: Please Help!

PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2016 10:00 am
by manfred
Hi, and welcome to the forum.
You can now post without waiting for a moderator.

Re: Please Help!

PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2016 11:02 am
by Ariel
Hi dionysus. Welcome. But how can we help you. We can tell you not to tell your friends and family you are an apostate, we can tell you that you made a good decision, but that is not the help you are after I bet. So please tell us how we can help you.

Re: Please Help!

PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2016 4:59 pm
by dionysus
Ariel wrote:Hi dionysus. Welcome. But how can we help you. We can tell you not to tell your friends and family you are an apostate, we can tell you that you made a good decision, but that is not the help you are after I bet. So please tell us how we can help you.



First of all thanks for your reply. I need your help in order to unlearn the Islamic teachings, the notions that Islam is the only true religion (accompanied by all the supporting evidence I've mentioned above) I learnt in childhood. And please tell me that how can I shield against the influences of those people who try to make me a good Muslim (especially my mother)?

Re: Please Help!

PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2016 5:57 pm
by Hombre
dear dionysus
welcome to the forum. I don't believe anyone of us non-Muslims comes here to "convert" Muslims to other religion - rather engage with intellectual exchange of what is Islam.

Your best weapon against Islam is Information and acquisition of knowledge. The more you know about other religions - Judea & Christianity in particularly, the more you can shut your fellow Muslims arguments for Islam.

My advise is, grab a copy of New Testament and English-translated of Hebrew Bible, and try read them for intellectual curiosity. That should give you clear evidence how Muhammad & Quran have plagiarized its "divine stories" from the other two book.

With this knowledge, you will be in much better position to challenge your fellow Muslims about the authenticity of Muhammad as prophet, and Quran as "true original manuscript"

Finally. Ali Sina (founder of this blog) wrote an excellent book "Understanding Muhammad" where, using modern clinical psychology, he has Muhammad's mental health is examined.

http://www.faithfreedom.org/book.htm

Re: Please Help!

PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 7:25 am
by pert
Not only is Micheal Hart Jewish (should Muslims trust the word of a Jew?) but he says Muhammad wrote the Quran and founded Islam, which preusmably Muslims don't agree with

Re: Please Help!

PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 11:01 am
by Fernando
I think one way is to chip away a little bit at a time at the things you have been told. Each little crack will help you open a bigger one.
I haven't time to go through your list at the moment, but here are a couple of things.
1) The Arabs overtook the Roman and Persian empires at a time when both were exhausted after fighting each other for centuries. Not when either of them was strong. Some say they'd also been badly affected by the Plague at the time.
2) As for Mohammed, could he really be such a good man when he had a fire lit on top of an old man to make him tell where his treasure was hidden? Or had an old poetess killed because she laughed at him?
Read some stuff on the forum, and good luck on your journey. Your mother loves you and can't help what she's doing. If you think it's hard, imagine how difficult it is for her.

Re: Please Help!

PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 4:32 pm
by exmuslim1
hi dionysius, I would advise you to study cognitive dissonance. It is a term from psychology describing how, even if your brain and your heart knows the truth, you can still be tempted to doubt. This was part of your 'system' for so long, that I believe it takes time and patience and step by step at a time. If people around you are going to bombard you with islam, no wonder sometimes you feel like tempted to return to the fold. They will tell you the nice parts. I recommend you to write down a list of the things that originally made you doubt and go back to this list each time.

Personally, even me having been a converted muslim for only 4 years I needed time to deprogram myself! Plus, I agree with Ali Sina on this site that Muhammad was a very manipulative and sick man, who knew exactly how to make leaving islam psychologically as difficult as possible. Just like abusive person who has his victim kind of under his spell, I recognize a lot from this. You are made to believe that you are a nothing, a dirty stupid low nothing without Allah and Muhammad, and you are absolutely powerless without the knowledge from islam. You are made to distrust any outside source of knowledge and you are made to internally punish yourself every time you doubt. No wonder it takes time to learn to trust the world without all of this. Be patient with yourself, don't be too hard on yourself.

Re: Please Help!

PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 8:41 pm
by exmuslim1
I can't reply you back in PB, I have not written 5 forum posts yet ;-). By the way I am a sister ;-).

Re: Please Help!

PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 8:43 pm
by dionysus
Thank You everyone for all your help!
Is there any leader in the world who defies all the threats posed by Islamists and embrace Muslim apostates with open arms? Is there a place where we can feel secure and just like any other global citizen?

Re: Please Help!

PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 8:50 pm
by dionysus
exmuslim1 wrote:I can't reply you back in PB, I have not written 5 forum posts yet ;-). By the way I am a sister ;-).


If you haven't made 5 posts yet, then please do. Enlighten everyone with your views. And sorry sister, for calling you bro. :)

Re: Please Help!

PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 9:07 pm
by dionysus
Fernando wrote:I think one way is to chip away a little bit at a time at the things you have been told. Each little crack will help you open a bigger one.
I haven't time to go through your list at the moment, but here are a couple of things.
1) The Arabs overtook the Roman and Persian empires at a time when both were exhausted after fighting each other for centuries. Not when either of them was strong. Some say they'd also been badly affected by the Plague at the time.
2) As for Mohammed, could he really be such a good man when he had a fire lit on top of an old man to make him tell where his treasure was hidden? Or had an old poetess killed because she laughed at him?
Read some stuff on the forum, and good luck on your journey. Your mother loves you and can't help what she's doing. If you think it's hard, imagine how difficult it is for her.


Thank You. Can you please refer me to any post in the forum where Muhammad's good things have been countered?

Re: Please Help!

PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 3:36 am
by skynightblaze
dionysus wrote:Thank You. Can you please refer me to any post in the forum where Muhammad's good things have been countered?


Read this thread..

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=16736

Re: Please Help!

PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 10:26 am
by frankie
dionysus wrote:Hello everyone, I'm new to the forum. I am an apostate from Pakistan. I renounced Mohammadanism a few years back. I'm Pro-Western, Pro-American a forward looking man.
Cut it short, this Ramazan, when my mom saw that I have completely deviated from the religion, she intensified her efforts in making me a true Muslim by praying all the time for me and doing wazifas. I'm becoming weak. Starting this Ramazan, unconsciously I find myself of the time when Muslims were superpower. When Muslims defeated the then superpowers like the Byzantine and Persian empire. I'm obsessively thinking about these things, these notions which one of my teacher used to tell me, who used telepathy to make me believe in him.

1- West has implemented all the golden principles of Islam and has got tremendous success, and Muslims have left those golden principles, thus Muslims are facing turmoil all over. Those golden principles are like the importance of education, women property rights, bringing an end to racism declaring whites have no superiority over blacks or Arabs have no superiority over Non-Arabs; emphasis on cleanliness in surroundings and personal hygiene;

2- A famous story goes by: A man visited Arab countries and Western countries. Upon finishing his journey, he told people that he only saw Muslims in Arab countries, but no Islam. But in West, I only saw Islam, but no Muslims.

3- Muslims often quote Michael Hart, who was a Christian, declared Muhammad as the greatest human being ever lived.

4- One must acknowledge Muhammad's military skills, his vision etc.

Not just these thoughts, but several other thoughts and notions are haunting me.

I'm unconsciously feeling that I should now give up and embrace Islam. I'm still scared to share all my fears with you people. I'm afraid of persecution. I'm using a VPN software, I don't know will it be helpful or not in hiding my identity.


Please help, I don't want to go back to the blood-thirsty religion.....



Dionysus:

You are to be highly commended to have left this faith, which by your own admission is one of violence and retribution,by the feelings of fear you have for leaving it.

Islam is not a true religion, it is a fake made up by a fake prophet, who just used everything that was familiar to him in his culture of 7th century Arabia including his "greatest "god Allah, and encompassed it into his invention he called Islam.

Islam must be exposed as such, by using its own sources to condemn it.

By using the Quran with its subsequent tafsirs,plus the example of Mohammed who understood the Quran and put it into action correctly, you have the ammunition to expose this fraudulent faith to the world, and bring Muslims to the truth of it.

The following hadiths give clear evidence how Mohammed put the Quran into action, thereby bringing "unbelievers "to accept Islam,he did this with the use of violence, which all Muslims who want to be true to their faith, must emulate.

Today we call this kind of behaviour terrorism, Mohammed used terror to bring people to Islam, he was a terrorist for his false god Allah, making all Muslims who emulate his example, terrorists for their god.

Mohammed did exactly as the Quran commanded, and was proud do so:

Shaih Al BukhariVolume 4, Book 52, Number 220:

Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Apostle said, "I have been sent with the shortest expressions bearing the widest meanings, and I have been made victorious with terror (cast in the hearts of the enemy), and while I was sleeping, the keys of the treasures of the world were brought to me and put in my hand." Abu Huraira added: Allah's Apostle has left the world and now you, people, are bringing out those treasures (i.e. the Prophet did not benefit by them).


Quran 3.151
Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with God, for which He had sent no authority: their abode will be the Fire: And evil is the home of the wrong-doers!
Quran 8.12
Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them."
Quran 8.60
Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of God and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom God doth know. Whatever ye shall spend in the cause of God, shall be repaid unto you, and ye shall not be treated unjustly

Re: Please Help!

PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 12:27 pm
by exmuslim1
I think you are far far more safe in the west than in Pakistan, at least in the west there is no official law that says you need to be punished. But even here I do not dare to come out in the open anymore, because even here the people who criticise islam openly get death threats, look at the brave Ayaan Hirsi Ali who is Somali / Dutch, she has body guards 24 / 7. And not without reason because her friend a filmmaker, Theo van Gogh, was brutally killed in broad daylight in the middle of the street by a muslim.

Re: Please Help!

PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 1:47 pm
by dionysus
exmuslim1 wrote:I think you are far far more safe in the west than in Pakistan, at least in the west there is no official law that says you need to be punished. But even here I do not dare to come out in the open anymore, because even here the people who criticise islam openly get death threats, look at the brave Ayaan Hirsi Ali who is Somali / Dutch, she has body guards 24 / 7. And not without reason because her friend a filmmaker, Theo van Gogh, was brutally killed in broad daylight in the middle of the street by a muslim.


Do you think that all or most of the Muslims suffer from the Stockholm syndrome?

Re: Please Help!

PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 2:53 pm
by exmuslim1
I cannot speak for most or all muslims, but it's an interesting question yes. Stockholm syndrome is one part of it I guess. I am now very much interested in cults and religions, and also what happens to abused people - what makes people stay in situations where they on some level know parts of it are totally unreasonable and even dangerous for them.

I think Stockholm syndrome is especially for this last part, when things become violent and dangerous for yourself and you still stay, and even go to help and advocate the person or cult / religion holding you hostage. So especially for women in islam that are abused (men hitting them etc) yes I think Stockholm syndrome plays a role.

In a broader sense I could see Stockholm Syndrome as God (in reality Muhammad ;-)) is holding you hostage and treats you like sh*t in islam, then you should be so very grateful for the small things he does give you even though you are so scared of him, always scared to make mistake always questioning your own thoughts... all the while you do not even notice that you are living in a cage and thinking destructive thoughts.

I think there is a lot of links between abuse and cults, several cults also use abuse against their followers.

I find it very interesting what Mr. Ali Sina said about Muhammad being a narcissist / psychopath, I see EXACTLY the same tactics that I know unfortunately in person from an abusive relationship I had. When you look at other cults and guru's like Scientology, you see the same patterns and tactics used every time again. I found ths interesting list just now that I can recognize a lot, with all kinds of 'tactics' involved to get you in and then once you are in, to keep you in. Below I mentioned the source. Maybe others can expand on this if they like. I am just writing my thoughts on this for the first time ;-).

--
*Isolation & Intimidation

*Destruction of absolutes, and the reintroduction of "new" ideas.

*Using broad generalizations to allow for misunderstandings so a person may be either rewarded/punished

*Unquestioning obedience

*Fear of separation/dislocation

*Promise of absolute rewards for success, absolute destruction for failure."

source: http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.p ... lt-Dynamic

Re: Please Help!

PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 7:43 pm
by Hombre
exmuslim1 wrote:I cannot speak for most or all muslims, but it's an interesting question yes. Stockholm syndrome is one part of it I guess. I am now very much interested in cults and religions, and also what happens to abused people - what makes people stay in situations where they on some level know parts of it are totally unreasonable and even dangerous for them.

I think Stockholm syndrome is especially for this last part, when things become violent and dangerous for yourself and you still stay, and even go to help and advocate the person or cult / religion holding you hostage. So especially for women in islam that are abused (men hitting them etc) yes I think Stockholm syndrome plays a role.

In a broader sense I could see Stockholm Syndrome as God (in reality Muhammad ;-)) is holding you hostage and treats you like sh*t in islam, then you should be so very grateful for the small things he does give you even though you are so scared of him, always scared to make mistake always questioning your own thoughts... all the while you do not even notice that you are living in a cage and thinking destructive thoughts.

I think there is a lot of links between abuse and cults, several cults also use abuse against their followers.

I find it very interesting what Mr. Ali Sina said about Muhammad being a narcissist / psychopath, I see EXACTLY the same tactics that I know unfortunately in person from an abusive relationship I had. When you look at other cults and guru's like Scientology, you see the same patterns and tactics used every time again. I found ths interesting list just now that I can recognize a lot, with all kinds of 'tactics' involved to get you in and then once you are in, to keep you in. Below I mentioned the source. Maybe others can expand on this if they like. I am just writing my thoughts on this for the first time ;-).

--
*Isolation & Intimidation

*Destruction of absolutes, and the reintroduction of "new" ideas.

*Using broad generalizations to allow for misunderstandings so a person may be either rewarded/punished

*Unquestioning obedience

*Fear of separation/dislocation

*Promise of absolute rewards for success, absolute destruction for failure."

source: http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.p ... lt-Dynamic
Since you are interested in Cults, Here is a link for that exact topic. I read his book "Cults inside out" and found it fascinating and very informative.
http://culteducation.com/

Also I recommend you watch the late Prof. Margret Singer


and this

Re: Please Help!

PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 7:58 am
by Ibn Rushd
I think there is a very strong case of S.S.

I have recently found these 2 books on moral panics: Moral Panics: The Social Construction of Deviance and Folk Devils and Moral Panics. Maybe for $2 the second book is worth buying.

Basically, the way I see it, countries (as they have since ancient Greece and Judah) see an attack on them or not getting ahead as due to some "mysterious" or "subversive" agent at work behind the scenes. In USA right now it is fat people: "they're gunna keel us all, faaaaaaaqqqq", in EU it is "racists" and anti-immigrations: "they're gunna keel us all, faaaaaaaqqqq", in the first world generally it is white people: "they're gunna keel us all, faaaaaaaqqqq". For Islam, it is Jews: "they're gunna keel us all, faaaaaaaqqqq". Basically, it is some boogyman created to centre everyone's attention away from the real issues such as insider trading, low min. wages, gov't propaganda, poor education system, death and taxes.

When I was in uni., one prof. truly believed (perhaps they all did, who knows!) that if only we could get rid of the Jews, money would grow on trees and we would never have to work another day in our lives. This is the hippy/leftist eutopia of holding hands and singing kumbaya.