Peace be upon me

[skynightblaze]

In short what you are trying to tell me is that GOD just writes the future. HE knows what is going to happen but plays no part in determining my destiny i.e my actions determine hell or heaven but that isnt the case so .It is very important for us to know what quran says regarding this. This is where usual muslim who tries to get away with the problems is caught. Quran says exactly the opposite of what he tries to tell .Here is what quran tells us regarding this issue.

[009:051]
Say: "Nothing shall ever happen to us except what Allah has ordained for us. He is our Maula (Lord, Helper and Protector)." And in Allah let the believers put their trust.

Quran tells us that nothing can happen without the will of Allah. SO certainly the future events that are supposed to take place must be with the will of Allah. Allah does play a role in determining my destiny unlike what you told me. Verse 9:51 is a proof of that.

Yes, Allah does play a role in your destiny. Never did I say that Allah has no role in your destiny. What I'm saying is that Allah allows us humans to make decisions. Those decisions are totally within Allah's knowledge. Never will you find a situation where someone decides something that caught Allah by surprise. That's the idea behind predestination. There's nothing outside of Allah's knowledge.

I notice that you do read the Quran. From its contents, did you notice that the author of Quran (Allah) is All-Knowing?
Did you notice that the contents of the Quran explains every situation in today's world, the ancient world and the things to come?Just flip through any sura, and you'll see that the author knows a lot more than all of our mortal knowledge can grasp

You have a wrong understanding of the word predestination. Predestination means Allah has decided the fate of each individual in advance. IT doesnt mean knowing before hand as you are trying to explain.You said you do not deny Allah playing a role in deciding your destiny.The debate ends here itself my friend.

Its Allahs will that I go to hell because thats what quran tells us in 9:51. If its Allah will that i go to hell then I am going to be a mere puppet and hence eventhough it may appear that I have a choice I am bound to make a incorrect decision because of the influence of Allahs will .

To simplify the matter let me give you an example. A robot does what he has been programmed to do . Suppose a robot wants to determine his way i.e left or right. HE has a choice here but that choice would be made by the creator of algorithm. The robot is a mere puppet. What route he has to take is already decided by the programmer.Now would you say that the robot has a choice and free will to determine his own path? He makes the choice of going left or right depending on what his master has willed.

Same is the case here. Allah decides your fate because as per quran everything happens by the will of Allah and not just with his knowledge .SO me going to hell too is because of Allahs will. SO Allah is a like programmer and we are the robots who follow the path that Allah has programmed for us for a simple reason that GOD cannot go wrong if he has decided upon something.A robot cannot take a decision other than what his master has determined for it just like us (humans) who cannot take any decision other than what Allah has already decided for us well in advance.

You also said that you found something extra ordinary in quran. I didnt find a single statement that is beyond common sense . Show me a single statement from quran which is out of the scope of an average human being.

Allah is not just a mere writer of my destiny. HE decides and then writes my destiny . This is what quran tells us.SO now when Allah decides my fate then who is the major culprit here? What sort of GOD is this who wills that I become an unbeliever and then later punishes me for the same?

Do you want coffee or tea? Can you make a decision right now?
If you make one, then congratulations! You've just exercised your free will. Thus, you do have free will. No one can deny it.

Now my question, is there anyone compelling you to make that decision?
If no (which I'm sure of), then we say that the decision is your decision. Agree?

AS i said previously if everything is willed by Allah then I do not exercise my free will.I merely become a follower of a path that Allah has decided for me. If Allah has decided that I take tea over coffee then I cannot make the choice of coffee .I am simply a puppet that makes a choice of having tea that its master has already made for it . My above analogy of the robot tells us the same thing.
The concept of free will comes into picture only when Allah doesnt make a decision about my fate in advance but that is not the case .

Let's move on;
For the sake of argument, let's say that you also consider God as the author of universal law (as I do).
If God says that those choosing coffee will go to heaven, while those choosing tea will go to hell, will you reconsider your choice assuming you chose tea earlier? Or would you stick to your current choice?

If you reconsider and choose coffee, the decision is your decision
If you stick with tea, the decision is still your decision

Its what you decide with your so-called free will that will take you either to heaven or to hell. God only knows what you will decide, not compelling you in your decision-making process in any way.

I think I have explained it well in the above argument. There is no need to repeat the same thing again.

First of all Predestined doesnt mean before hand as ExpozIslam said.Your entire argument and analogy crumbles to pieces when we see what PRedestined means as per quran.Predestined means decided upon by divine will. I have proved above using quran that nothing can happen without the will of Allah so me becoming a disbeliever is because of Allah .

Correction. You becoming a disbeliever because of your own decision. Allah only knows that you will make this decision. Allah never interferes with anyone's decision-making process.

The cause of my decision is Allah . I merely follow what has been programmed or destined for me.

Now coming to your analogy its flawed. The writer in tibetan mountains is not GOD . He is simply a writer and he doesnt decide the fate of David Koresh unlike GOd of quran. GOd of quran decides the fate of the man . There is a difference between deciding someone's fate and predicting someone's fate.In your analogy you are quoting a man who is merely predicting but in our case we have a GOD who is deciding someone's fate.

God decides your fate through your decision-making process. I'm sure you will never say that God ever interferes with your free will. Its what you do with your free will that justifies your ending.

I proved it using quran that it is GOD who decides our fate because everything takes place by his will . There is a difference between taking place by will and taking place with his knowledge.

Suppose in your analogy that GOD decides that DAvid would change the bulb with his right hand. Now Can David change the bulb using left hand instead of right ?? Can he go against what GOD has decided for him? The answer is no and he would do exactly what GOD has decided. SO where is the question of choice for David?

Now this is what I mean by there's no escaping God's knowledge and power. He can change the bulb with his left hand and when he does, even that decision he made is predestined. The point is, there's nothing outside of God's knowledge and power.

That is not my point of disagreement with you. My point is again i repeat that its Allah who makes the decision of my fate even before I am born

Predestination means something which Allah has already decided upon and not knowing before hand. I have used quran to prove this. So predestination by Allah and I having a choice cannot go hand in hand. ITs either one of them .

What is the meaning of this statement of yours?
"Predestination means something which Allah has already decided upon and not knowing before hand."

Shouldn't it be -"Something which Allah has already decided upon is already known to Allah".
How can Allah decides one thing and suddenly becomes ignorant or forgets his decision?

I understand your desire to have a choice outside of Allah's knowledge and power. You are not alone in this. The truth remains, there's simply no option outside of Allah's influence whether we like it or not.

Pre destination means something that has been decided by Allah. Your statement "Shouldn't it be -"Something which Allah has already decided upon is already known to Allah". is wrong. I do not deny that Allah doesnt know. My point is he knows as well as decides and that is what quran tells us.

[syamal]

To make it easy to comprehend, let's consider these true statements
1) You are responsible to make choices
2) Your choices will determine your destiny (heaven or hell)
3) God already knows all the choices that you has made and will make in the future
4) Since God already knows beforehand all your choices, we say that God has already written your script for you
5) Since God has already written your script for you, you're actually playing out God's script all the time
6) You cannot actually feel it, but every choice, every word, everything is predestined

Your Knowledge on Islam is very sound. It's a grace from Allah'dala. You have clear idia who is destined to heaven and hell.
I am very curious to know from you the destination of pigs and dogs after death. Give me clear judgment of Allahchubhanudala.
Waiting for your reply. I am too interested to hear opinion from murtad khalil.

[except a few]

You have a wrong understanding of the word predestination. Predestination means Allah has decided the fate of each individual in advance. IT doesnt mean knowing before hand as you are trying to explain.You said you do not deny Allah playing a role in deciding your destiny.The debate ends here itself my friend.

Yes, its true that Allah has decided the fate of each individual in advance. Allah has written the script of life with 100% accuracy. I repeat, has written, not 'about to write' nor 'maybe i'll change some of these writings later'.

'Has written' means 'has decided' or 'has authorized'. The decision whether a soul will go to heaven or hell has been made long ago. In other words, the script of life has been finalised long ago. No revisions, no updates.

What you need to understand here is that being a nonbeliever at this moment never justifies that you'll end up in hell. Being a nonbeliever at this moment simply means that 'you're a nonbeliever at this moment', nothing more nothing less. There's always a possibility for you to be a believer since you're still alive. There's also a possibility for me to be a nonbeliever considering that I'm still alive. It's the state of our death that ultimately determines whether we're destined for heaven or hell.

Its Allahs will that I go to hell because thats what quran tells us in 9:51. If its Allah will that i go to hell then I am going to be a mere puppet and hence eventhough it may appear that I have a choice I am bound to make a incorrect decision because of the influence of Allahs will .

These are true only if you're ultimately destined for hell. The situation can always be reversed since you're still alive.

To simplify the matter let me give you an example. A robot does what he has been programmed to do . Suppose a robot wants to determine his way i.e left or right. HE has a choice here but that choice would be made by the creator of algorithm. The robot is a mere puppet. What route he has to take is already decided by the programmer.Now would you say that the robot has a choice and free will to determine his own path? He makes the choice of going left or right depending on what his master has willed.

Same is the case here. Allah decides your fate because as per quran everything happens by the will of Allah and not just with his knowledge .SO me going to hell too is because of Allahs will. SO Allah is a like programmer and we are the robots who follow the path that Allah has programmed for us for a simple reason that GOD cannot go wrong if he has decided upon something.A robot cannot take a decision other than what his master has determined for it just like us (humans) who cannot take any decision other than what Allah has already decided for us well in advance.

I'd like to discuss this example in the new thread about to be started by Pragmatist with the topic of Islam and free will. I'll copy this example there and further discuss on it.

AS i said previously if everything is willed by Allah then I do not exercise my free will.I merely become a follower of a path that Allah has decided for me. If Allah has decided that I take tea over coffee then I cannot make the choice of coffee .I am simply a puppet that makes a choice of having tea that its master has already made for it . My above analogy of the robot tells us the same thing.
The concept of free will comes into picture only when Allah doesnt make a decision about my fate in advance but that is not the case .

The cause of my decision is Allah . I merely follow what has been programmed or destined for me.

I proved it using quran that it is GOD who decides our fate because everything takes place by his will . There is a difference between taking place by will and taking place with his knowledge.

My point is again i repeat that its Allah who makes the decision of my fate even before I am born

Pre destination means something that has been decided by Allah. Your statement "Shouldn't it be -"Something which Allah has already decided upon is already known to Allah". is wrong. I do not deny that Allah doesnt know. My point is he knows as well as decides and that is what quran tells us.

I'll discuss these points also in the new thread

You also said that you found something extra ordinary in quran. I didnt find a single statement that is beyond common sense . Show me a single statement from quran which is out of the scope of an average human being.

O ye who believe! Ask not questions about things which, if made plain to you, may cause you trouble. But if ye ask about things when the Qur-an is being revealed, they will be made plain to you. Allah will forgive those: for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Forbearing. (5:101)

[except a few]

Your Knowledge on Islam is very sound. It's a grace from Allah'dala. You have clear idia who is destined to heaven and hell.
I am very curious to know from you the destination of pigs and dogs after death. Give me clear judgment of Allahchubhanudala.
Waiting for your reply. I am too interested to hear opinion from murtad khalil.

Alhamdulillah, all praise and glory be to Allah. It is He and only Him alone that knew the destination of pigs and dogs after their death.

One thing I'm sure of, none of them is going to hell because none of them can rebel against Allah.

[Maersk]

And Allah made these arse of the wild men of Islam because Allah knows Best what he could do for Satan. Dogs and Apes can't save these filth of humanity now all due to Allah.

[skynightblaze]

@except a few

I will wait for you to reply in the new thread that Pragmatist is going to start. I just want to say one thing here. I am talking about people who are destined to hell i.e who never accept islam and Allah all their life and you are talking about people who upto this moment are unbelievers and may possibly become believers in the future.

[Natassia]

Playing the victim is typical behavior of cult members.



Don't worry, I don't hate you for being a Muslim. In fact, I don't hate you at all.

I just hate the ideology of Islam...just like I hate fascism, supremism, communism, sexism, etc.

Frequently I have Muslims try to convince me to convert to Islam...and one of their favorite methods is to emphasize how Muslims are the victims--primarily of the Zionist Jews, but also by the Imperialist West.

(lol)

[Chief Chingachgook]

'Has written' means 'has decided' or 'has authorized'. The decision whether a soul will go to heaven or hell has been made long ago. In other words, the script of life has been finalised long ago. No revisions, no updates.

Would you be so kind as to e-mail Allah and ask him for a copy of my script? But please don't upload it here. Set it to me using the PM.

[except a few]

Playing the victim is typical behavior of cult members.

Are you implying that I'm playing as a victim?
How can you reach that conclusion?
If you honestly see me as a victim, then who is my oppressor if you could kindly elaborate?

Don't worry, I don't hate you for being a Muslim. In fact, I don't hate you at all.

I just hate the ideology of Islam...just like I hate fascism, supremism, communism, sexism, etc.

"Don't worry, i don't hate you ...(a few words later)... hate the ideology of Islam ... hate fascism ... hate supremism ... hate communism ..."

Welcome to FFI, "hater"! Do read my signature. Maybe you can put yourself in Iblis's shoes, hating to such an extent.

[except a few]

'Has written' means 'has decided' or 'has authorized'. The decision whether a soul will go to heaven or hell has been made long ago. In other words, the script of life has been finalised long ago. No revisions, no updates.

Would you be so kind as to e-mail Allah and ask him for a copy of my script? But please don't upload it here. Set it to me using the PM.

That would take away all the fun out of life now, wouldn't it?
Isn't the element of surprise is one of life's pleasures?

Furthermore, that would be unfair to all humans that are living and has ever lived. Even prophets don't get the luxury of receiving their full script beforehand.

[sunshine]

Playing the victim is typical behavior of cult members.



Don't worry, I don't hate you for being a Muslim. In fact, I don't hate you at all.

I just hate the ideology of Islam...just like I hate fascism, supremism, communism, sexism, etc.

Frequently I have Muslims try to convince me to convert to Islam...and one of their favorite methods is to emphasize how Muslims are the victims--primarily of the Zionist Jews, but also by the Imperialist West.

(lol)

Why only the muslims are always victims. why Christians, Jews, Buddists dont consider themselves victims.
Because Muslims are the greatest disguised imperialist of present time. they want make the whole world Dar-us-Salam and whoever stops their evil intention they are labeled as Oppressors.
Indeed islamic psychology holds the greatest mysticism of millenium.

[Natassia]

Playing the victim is typical behavior of cult members.

Are you implying that I'm playing as a victim?
How can you reach that conclusion?
If you honestly see me as a victim, then who is my oppressor if you could kindly elaborate?

Don't worry, I don't hate you for being a Muslim. In fact, I don't hate you at all.

I just hate the ideology of Islam...just like I hate fascism, supremism, communism, sexism, etc.

"Don't worry, i don't hate you ...(a few words later)... hate the ideology of Islam ... hate fascism ... hate supremism ... hate communism ..."

Welcome to FFI, "hater"! Do read my signature. Maybe you can put yourself in Iblis's shoes, hating to such an extent.

so...I am supposed to embrace evil now? I am supposed to embrace suppression and oppression so as not to seem like a "hater"? I don't want to appear discriminatory, do I?

Well guess what...there are many things in this world worth hating....like disease and cruelty and selfishness and human sacrifice and torture and child abuse and rape and death.

[except a few]

Playing the victim is typical behavior of cult members.

Are you implying that I'm playing as a victim?
How can you reach that conclusion?
If you honestly see me as a victim, then who is my oppressor if you could kindly elaborate?

Don't worry, I don't hate you for being a Muslim. In fact, I don't hate you at all.

I just hate the ideology of Islam...just like I hate fascism, supremism, communism, sexism, etc.

"Don't worry, i don't hate you ...(a few words later)... hate the ideology of Islam ... hate fascism ... hate supremism ... hate communism ..."

Welcome to FFI, "hater"! Do read my signature. Maybe you can put yourself in Iblis's shoes, hating to such an extent.

so...I am supposed to embrace evil now? I am supposed to embrace suppression and oppression so as not to seem like a "hater"? I don't want to appear discriminatory, do I?

Well guess what...there are many things in this world worth hating....like disease and cruelty and selfishness and human sacrifice and torture and child abuse and rape and death.

Hate is negative and destructive, while love is positive and constructive. I'm not saying that we must never hate anything at all. What I'm saying is that you're an advocate of negativity instead of positivity.

How about my earlier question?

If you honestly see me as a victim, then who is my oppressor if you could kindly elaborate?

I'm currently brimming with anticipation

[Natassia]

Hi all,

All praise and glory be to Allah, The Most Gracious, The Most Merciful. Peace and blessing be upon my beloved Prophet Muhammad.

I'm already expecting to get grilled left and right in this forum by simply by mentioning the above. Being a Muslim is enough reason to get mocked and ridiculed here. After all, everything is predestined, even the condition of Muslims getting ridiculed and mocked simply because they choose to become Muslims is clearly mentioned in the Holy Quran. In a way, I see the prophesies in the Holy Quran played out in this forum.

Looking forward to see more of what Allah mentions in the Holy Quran come to pass

My friend, you played the victim in your introduction...

You expected to be "grilled left and right in this forum" for being a Muslim...which is, to you, "enough reason to get mocked and ridiculed." This mocking and ridicule has been "predestined" for Muslims.

Essentially, you assumed the role of a victim in this forum...simply because of your religious beliefs.

[katmandu]

@ Peace be upon me

The Koran wasn't written by GOD at all - that you believe that is to your detriment; that you can't see that you are totally manipulated into thinking that the Koran is GOD instead of SATAN - even worse for you. Koran/Gabriel/Muhammed are the dangerous manipulating UNHOLY Trinity of Islam.

You write: "my beloved Prophet Muhammad."


You love Mohammed 'the prophet' who was a child molester, a rapist; and a mass murdered? A man like Saddam who you declare 'holy'?

Let us know and we will understand who and what you are.

" After all, everything is predestined, even the condition of Muslims getting ridiculed and mocked simply because they choose to become Muslims is clearly mentioned in the Holy Quran."

But do you understand WHY the Koran/Muhammed says this?

I'll explain: 'Muslims can expect criticisme' is because the Koran is a Theological Crime (Koran = wholesale criminal/distorted theft from the holy text from other religions) - and Muhammed knew this why he/whoever found an excuse to cover up these crimes by: 'muslims can expect criticisme'; and why you repeat this excuse:

In a way, I see the prophesies in the Holy Quran played out in this forum.

= 'I don't have to listen to critique' - to your own detriment as not wanting to open your ears for critique means you stay stuck with what you think is the TRUTH - and which the Koran/Muhammed are not - but wehat the Koran/Muhammed WANTS you to think.

THINK about this and open your eyes wide:

in the Holy Quran come to pass17:62 He (Iblis) said, "Do You see? This is one whom You have honored above me! If you will only grant me relief till The Day of Judgement, I will surely take his children under my control, and mislead them - All, except a few!"
except a few

You accept 'Allah' who has the typical character of any seculuar TIRANT as 'Allah' knows no true love he ORDERS YOU TO LOVE - and if not - 'Allah WILL BURN YOU IN HELL'

'Allah'has typical characteristics of humans being: tirant, beligerend, violent, wants war, hates those who think differently, discriminates, is a racist. ...

Ýou your religion I mine'

Indeed only fools who cannot see through te Koran/Muhammed and grand scale misdeeds - every day - want to be 'muslims' - and muslims who do understand and are therefore Islam Fascist - like in Iran and the Taliban - 'following the path of the prophet'- excactly, step after step - the murdering jihadi's.

[except a few]

Hi all,

All praise and glory be to Allah, The Most Gracious, The Most Merciful. Peace and blessing be upon my beloved Prophet Muhammad.

I'm already expecting to get grilled left and right in this forum by simply by mentioning the above. Being a Muslim is enough reason to get mocked and ridiculed here. After all, everything is predestined, even the condition of Muslims getting ridiculed and mocked simply because they choose to become Muslims is clearly mentioned in the Holy Quran. In a way, I see the prophesies in the Holy Quran played out in this forum.

Looking forward to see more of what Allah mentions in the Holy Quran come to pass

My friend, you played the victim in your introduction...

When you say that I played a victim here, it means you agree that most of the members here are oppressors. Do you agree that you're an oppressor?

To me, you are a hater. Now is an opportunity for you to show all that you're also an oppressor.

You expected to be "grilled left and right in this forum" for being a Muslim...which is, to you, "enough reason to get mocked and ridiculed." This mocking and ridicule has been "predestined" for Muslims.

Essentially, you assumed the role of a victim in this forum...simply because of your religious beliefs.

Do you agree that being a devout Muslim is enough reason for someone to get mocked and ridiculed?

[skynightblaze]

@except a few

Why dont you just address me here ? Pragmatist said that he is not going to open a seperate thread.

[except a few]

@except a few

Why dont you just address me here ? Pragmatist said that he is not going to open a seperate thread.

I've just started a new thread and addressed your questions here:
viewtopic.php?f=33&t=1643&start=0

The topic is "Free will is ability to decide without compulsion"

I invite all to put your 2 cents in

[Natassia]

Interesting....First, you label me as a hater because I hate evil ideologies that lead people to hurt other people, and then you make the outrageous statement that I am an oppressor and that I agree most members are oppressors because I said you "play the victim." Obviously you do not understand the meaning of this phrase. If someone is truly a victim, they aren't playing, my friend.

No, I do not agree that being a devout Muslim is enough reason for someone to get mocked and ridiculed. However, I do not believe that Islam deserves any modicum of respect or deference. If someone mocks you, that is uncalled for. If someone mocks Muhammad, that is a different story.

[Ram]

Hi all,

All praise and glory be to Allah, The Most Gracious, The Most Merciful. Peace and blessing be upon my beloved Prophet Muhammad.

I'm already expecting to get grilled left and right in this forum by simply by mentioning the above. Being a Muslim is enough reason to get mocked and ridiculed here. After all, everything is predestined, even the condition of Muslims getting ridiculed and mocked simply because they choose to become Muslims is clearly mentioned in the Holy Quran. In a way, I see the prophesies in the Holy Quran played out in this forum.

Looking forward to see more of what Allah mentions in the Holy Quran come to pass

Muslims are grilled not because they are Muslims or they venerate Muhammad as Allah's prophet. Muslims are grilled because Muslims are full of hatred towards non-Muslims. We do not care if you accept Muhammad as your Prophet, we grill you because Muhammad was a paedophile. He married 6 (six) year old little girl Ayesha when he was 53 years old. He had sex with her when she was only 9 and he was 56, old enough to be her grandfather. We question your judgement when you accept a man who was a paedophile as your Prophet.

Muslims are very intolerant people. They kill innocent people while shouting Allah Akbar. This makes us believe that Islam sanctions slaughter of non-Muslims, otherwise why would Muslims shout Allah Akbar while slitting throats of non-Muslims. Do you remember Daniel Pearl? The man who slit his throat screamed Allah Akbar.

There is no freedom of religion in Muslim countries. Paedophilia is legal in many Muslim countries, specially Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and Afghanistan. Women are treated worse than slaves. You do know that the Taliban does not allow girls to go to schools? Women get whipped in Saudi Arabia if they are without all encompassing abayas. Women get killed for not wearing Burkhas in Afghanistan and NWFP (Pakistan) The list is endless.