Hi there - Some Questions

[debunker]

I'm not furious, I'm just puzzled.

[axiomatic]

I thought I already explained to you that religion is what you make of it... think of it as a tool that can be easily abused only by idiots.

Every sect of believers think that they are on the right path. So, ultimately would consider others to be idiots. Again we have to take the objective approach to find who is right or wrong. But as you said the truth of religion is subjective, everyone will carry on to rely on their pretty approach to stick with their truth.
I am afraid you said you find your truth. Yes, thats what every believer think around. Its basically the problem of religion which requires you to rely on your pretty approach to find the truth. According to this approach, not everyone will find the same thing. Ultimately problems will arise and these problems you can see around.
If we take the theory of pretty approach to find the truth then everyone will have a justification for their truth. It means Christians, Muslims, Jews etc and different sects of these religions all have justification because they are basically finding beauty in it. So, why do you argue with them for things you believe but they don't. They are subjective and so you are. Why do you have a problem then. Let me tell you, its because you think your pleasure look is better. What a ridiculous approach this is.

What are you saying exactly? Are you saying that you told your family and pals that you don't believe? And they still tolerate you? I could somehow believe that your friends would still be your friends... in fact, you might even become more popular (the new freak in their group), but I cannot believe that your family can ever tolerate your apostasy... I'd imagine your father would have killed you with his own hands if you stubbornly insisted on apostasy.

Ok, now you're being impolite. Listen stupid. Like you, I apostated and like you I lived among Muslims when I was an apostate. No one knocked on my door everyday and asked if I performed prayers... and when I got out with friends we never discussed among ourselves whether we were Muslims or not. We rarely ever mentioned religion... so stop pretending like you had to suffer to hide your apostasy.

Well, the problem is that I am gonna try to gradually convince the people around that they haven't seen the other side of the picture. Its my problem that I can't live like a slave of lies. So, I expect problems. You didn't talk about your apostasy because its developed within your personality to live with lies

Dude, I told you *sometimes* truth is subjective and gave you an example on how my truth is not necessarily someone else's truth.

If you believe that your truth is not ultimate then why you argue about it. No one argues about their choice of which color is most beautiful. So, why its your double standard to argue with people about theory of God etc.

You're missing everything.

Yes, maybe. But you deny the possibility that you may also be missing something.

You don't seem to be able to understand anything I say, do you? No, I said you are ALREADY a hardcore atheist that, hypothetically speaking, even if God shown Himself to you, you'd still won't believe but rather think that you must have been hallucinating.

Forget about the links, you can't even understand my simple words here, so I can't imagine you'll be able to unerstand what I said to others in this forum.

You want to force me to understand your theories which I have concluded to be flawed. If God shown Himself to me at a balanced state of mind, I would accept it. But don't give me this crap OK. Have you seen God and then you believed?
From your last post I see you bursting up. Is it how you present your logic. I am not interested in your comments no more.

Strictly speaking, of course I can never be 100% sure. But I didn't claim knowing everything.. I only claimed that YOU can never embrace any religion.. there's always a chance for me to be wrong in this prediction, but I think the odds of me being wrong (about you) are very very small.

Ok. But don't act like you are 100% sure.

By the way, do you speak Arabic? Because in your first post you mentioned "Taqdeer" when you really meant "Qadar"... Taqdeer sounded a bit odd. Then I realized that you said you came from a Wahhabi famil, not a Wahabbi country (Saudi Arabia)... so I'm guessing you don't know Arabic... why am I asking? Just curious.

I can't speak Arabic. But I have got some training to understand it.

Listen stupid... I know that for arrogant idiots like you, who think that God exists only to answer their prayers and then take them to paradise after they die, believing in God is impossible because they never really believed in Him in the first place.

You have been worshipping yourself all along!!!

I didn't think like this after or before reverting. It was just one bad moment. I came back again because I realized my logic was flawed. So, don't take this thing as a basis to analyze my apostasy decision.
Your indecent language is only showing that how much your comments are affected with emotions and its a reflection of the true face of your subjective approach.

[AbdulRahman]

Debunker wrote:

you made no logical argument at all...

Look who is talking about logical argument.
Debunker ran away from my argument of Qurbani/Eid-ul-Adha.

You will remain in run for your life due to your filthy Allah as you described it.

[debunker]

@ axiom

although it is obvious you can hardly undersand anything I say, here are the links:

read starting with this post and check ALL the links within.
viewtopic.php?f=22&t=4468&start=20#p73865

read starting with this post until the end of conversation:
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=4621&p=76190#p76166

read these posts too.
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=4516&start=20#p74552
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=4516&start=40#p74585
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=4516&start=40#p74595
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=4516&start=40#p74659
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=4516&start=40#p74755

[charleslemartel]

The desire to be violent comes from inside... you search for justifications for violence or even invent justifications if you want to.

In fact, it boils down to desires... what is your desire? Become an atheist? You're already an atheist and there's no need to justify this desire. Who cares what Ali Sina is, or whether religion promotes violence or not or causes backwardness or not. You are an atheist and you will do everything you can to stay that way, simply because you want to.

Everything boils down to desires.

Ultimately, all desires are about one and one thing only: to feel good and avoid suffering. One believes in something because that belief provides some sort of comfort, and one discards a belief because one starts seeing the belief as a burden which causes suffering. It all depends on one's viewpoint and the debates or discussions are about defending one's position, or in some cases to test the soundness of your viewpoint.

I see atheism as superior to the belief system one is born in in one way: the atheist has been able to summon up the courage to discard one of his conditionings. Of course there are people who profess to be atheists just for the heck of it in the hope that it would make them look smarter. But an atheist can be more stupid than a staunch believer.

I would say that an atheist, if he is genuine, is more courageous and freedom loving.

[axiomatic]

Everything boils down to desires.

Ultimately, all desires are about one and one thing only: to feel good and avoid suffering. One believes in something because that belief provides some sort of comfort, and one discards a belief because one starts seeing the belief as a burden which causes suffering. It all depends on one's viewpoint and the debates or discussions are about defending one's position, or in some cases to test the soundness of your viewpoint.

I see atheism as superior to the belief system one is born in in one way: the atheist has been able to summon up the courage to discard one of his conditionings. Of course there are people who profess to be atheists just for the heck of it in the hope that it would make them look smarter. But an atheist can be more stupid than a staunch believer.

I would say that an atheist, if he is genuine, is more courageous and freedom loving.

You said it right my friend.

[Bruce Lee]

It all depends on one's viewpoint and the debates or discussions are about defending one's position, or in some cases to test the soundness of your viewpoint.

Good point Charles and I suspect that is what debunker has really been doing during this exchange.

A question for debunker - You said to axiomatic

"In your case, only Him showing Himself to you might convince you that He exists, but something tells me that even if that happened you'd think that you're hallucinating..."

Do you feel you may have met God or what Christians would call a Christic Encounter?

I have a feeling you believe you have.

Is that what brought you back to Islam?

[ColonialRustic]

I have couple of questions I wonder though.

1- Ali Sina said that he believe in a God of different kind. Well, I want to know if his belief is based on supposed logic that he used to convince muslims or is it some special case.

While I hesitate to speak for Ali Sina, I think he is a Zarathushtri (Zoroastrian), the ancient pre-Islamic religion of Iran, and many parts of the Middle East. It's tenets are very basic - "Good thoughts, good words, good deeds." It might be a more appropriate religion for those culturally tied to the Middle East. I am not a Zarathushtri myself, but you might want to consider looking into this belief.
http://www.zarathushtra.com/

2- If I remain an athiest, would I eventually become ruthless and unjust in the long run, as I had nothing to fear from (Allah etc). Please, answer in reference to the historic evidence. Were athiests the most peaceful beings ever on the face of earth.

I don't think atheists are more peaceful than any other people. If you look at a couple of nations where atheism is institutionalized in the nation leadership, such as Russia or China, they are not particularly peaceful. The atheists that I personally know are pretty easily irritated, and they seem intolerant of anyone who openly professes any religious beliefs whatsoever.

I don't pester them about being atheists, so I don't think they should attack me for a belief in deity.

[debunker]

@ bruce

A question for debunker - You said to axiomatic

"In your case, only Him showing Himself to you might convince you that He exists, but something tells me that even if that happened you'd think that you're hallucinating..."

Do you feel you may have met God or what Christians would call a Christic Encounter?

No.

I have a feeling you believe you have.

Wrong.

Is that what brought you back to Islam?

No.

[Bruce Lee]

@ bruce

A question for debunker - You said to axiomatic

"In your case, only Him showing Himself to you might convince you that He exists, but something tells me that even if that happened you'd think that you're hallucinating..."

Do you feel you may have met God or what Christians would call a Christic Encounter?

No.

I have a feeling you believe you have.

Wrong.

Is that what brought you back to Islam?

No.

Why is it then so difficult for you to understand the agnostic/atheist viewpoint held by axiomatic?

I'm afraid you haven't really made that clear.

[debunker]

Deism rather than atheism is a reasonable stand. That's what I was trying to convey to axiomatic (I even gave him links to previous debates over this).

However, I don't know if Deists can stay without religion for too long... I searched within monotheistic religions and eventually came back to Islam. But probably most Deists end up becoming atheists... I don't know, but I do know that God does exist.

[Bruce Lee]

Deism rather than atheism is a reasonable stand. That's what I was trying to convey to axiomatic (I even gave him links to previous debates over this).

However, I don't know if Deists can stay without religion for too long... I searched within monotheistic religions and eventually came back to Islam. But probably most Deists end up becoming atheists... I don't know, but I do know that God does exist.

I don't want to speak for axiomatic but I'm pretty sure he has held out 1% for the existence of God.

In my book that makes him an agnostic and not an atheist which for me is the most logical position for someone who has doubts on the existence of God.

[Shaunm1963]

Hi Axiomatic

You wrote: I actually asked about the chances. For example, how much atheist community is peaceful in ratio to other religions (Islam, Christianity, Jews etc). Just an opinion is required.

Further, in relation to advancement is science and technology which group has ever been most advanced. Is it atheists or Christians, Muslaims etc.

A couple of comments: the so-called scientific advancements commonly associated with the islamic world have nothing to do with islam. Remember, some 'people' are scientifically minded, others aren't. These two groups of people will live in any culture, in any land, at any time. If the scientifically minded person is a muslim or a Christian or an atheist or polytheist the level of inquiry and scientific progress made will be dependent on the amount of 'free-thinking' that persons particular belief system/culture allows; is the person 'allowed' to claim the earth is round when the authorities say it is flat. Or, can the person despite their scientific grasp think beyond their own conditioning? Also, particularly in the case of islam, mohamed and his descendents conquered already well-established nations that had achieved various levels of scientific prowess; islam took it as it's own.

As far as peace is concerned: humans are capable of making moral choices without being told to do so. Most religions and belief systems give some degree of guidence so it's adherents know right from wrong, but and especially in the case of islam, there are too many immoral challenges that are taken at their word that make the reader be in conflict with the rest of the populace. The wars of the world, especially the middle east, are a direct result of the dreadful words of the koran to incite violence against non-muslims. But then, if the koran was removed from the state of play then all religion would also have to be removed. Humans without religion....can you imagine....science, art, literature, peotry, technology....next stop the cosmos....


A note on atheism. I don't believe in god. Any god. If I start to push the non-existence of god, I am no different to those that push his/her/it's existence. Rather, a 'true' atheist should just say I am neither atheist nor theist, I am human.

[charleslemartel]

but I do know that God does exist.

Surely you mean that you believe that God does exist?

[Brendalee]

WELCOME AXIOMATIC!




Debunker:

Deism rather than atheism is a reasonable stand. That's what I was trying to convey to axiomatic (I even gave him links to previous debates over this).

However, I don't know if Deists can stay without religion for too long... I searched within monotheistic religions and eventually came back to Islam. But probably most Deists end up becoming atheists... I don't know, but I do know that God does exist.

You seem to equate belief in God with the need to have an organised religion and its dogma to cling to.

It reminds me of a joke: A man was walking in his village when he ran into the cleric from the local house of worship:"We haven't seen you at worship. I invite you to come along this week. A good prayer session will recharge your spiritual batteries."

"Thanks anyway", replied the man, "But I'm connected to the mains."

If there is a God, surely it is bigger than organised religion. Why do you think organised religions have any "special" knowledge? The moment humans try to define a God with their dogma, they make it too small and petty to be one.

Can anyone seriously believe in a God that micro-manages the marital disputes of its prophet, for example?

[axiomatic]

I don't think atheists are more peaceful than any other people. If you look at a couple of nations where atheism is institutionalized in the nation leadership, such as Russia or China, they are not particularly peaceful. The atheists that I personally know are pretty easily irritated, and they seem intolerant of anyone who openly professes any religious beliefs whatsoever.

I don't pester them about being atheists, so I don't think they should attack me for a belief in deity.

For China and Russia, its likely the impact of communism. Communism is an ideology pretty much similar to a religion except acceptance of God is not necessary.
As for the intolerance of atheists, if you would say that killing infidels in the name of God is justified then your views are intolerable. Religion causes a hell of problems then how come a sane person can tolerate such religion.